Today’s daily dose of LangCleg sense

[OnlyTheTitOfTheLangBerg]

Because it bears repeating.

I think it's great to have this discussion. Many ordinary people don't fully understand safeguarding. I hope reading this makes some people think. Especially those working in organisations that have bought in training that contradicts safeguarding.

I think some people don't realise that there are legal ramifications to safeguarding and that professionals are very clear on what they have to do (or should be!). We don't have a choice about this.

This is true - so why are so many guidance documents being promoted to schools actually suggesting keeping secrets? Why aren't more safeguarding leads just saying 'no, nope. Legally can't do that. Safeguarding'.

I don't understand why it's got to this point. (I'm not expecting anyone to have the answers, I just truly don't really understand how it's got to this point - this is when we bloody need Lang bet she'd be able to have a good go at answering).

I think that when a child gets to the point that they want to tell someone about what has happened or is happening to then then they know that they need help.

Promising to keep secrets doesn't help them

People who understand Safeguarding build relationships with & support children all the time. When a child discloses, its vital that adults understand the core established principles of how to best support them.

Langbanned I don't know the answer to that question, I have various ideas but none of them make sense. I'm reading "The madness of crowds" by Douglas Murray, which examines the current hysteria of identity politics. It's fascinating and frightening, seeing how debate is being closed down. I hope by the end of it I may be a little clearer as to the answer to your question.

I forgot to say thank you for reposting this excellent reminder of Safeguarding basics.

And thanks for the gvmt guidelines R0wantrees

And totally agree that it's when the rules are bent for different situations is the point at which safeguarding could start to fail

Promising to keep secrets doesn't help them

It's worth noting that some children looking to disclose have already been harmed by adults making them keep secrets. It is common in toxic family relationships as a way of keeping outside interference at bay, as well as abusers using coercion and threat to keep a child quiet. These children may try very hard to get a teacher to keep a secret because that's what feels normal to them. It is the responsibility of the teacher /other professional to model a different way of relating.

Blimey! I didn't know that hooves/zebras thing.

The stuff I've learned in the few months I've been here is astounding.

Thank you all xxx

Safeguarding always fails when the fundamental principles are bent.

For example, children under 16 cannot consent to sex with adults.
This applies to all children & is a Safeguard based on age.
Some adults believed this did not apply to particular groups of girls whilst in Care in Manchester, this was based on their interpretion. The girls were not Safeguarded, predatory males exploited the failing & vulnerable children were abused.

It's worth noting that some children looking to disclose have already been harmed by adults making them keep secrets. It is common in toxic family relationships as a way of keeping outside interference at bay, as well as abusers using coercion and threat to keep a child quiet. These children may try very hard to get a teacher to keep a secret because that's what feels normal to them. It is the responsibility of the teacher /other professional to model a different way of relating.

This is such an important point.
Teachers & other professionals do this as part of Safeguarding children.

Stillathing I came on to say the same as R0wantrees; that is such an excellent point.

As you say, for many abused and vulnerable children having secrets between them and adults is normal, and toxic. Knowing the adult you're talking to and confiding in only has your best interests at heart, which includes disclosure, is modelling a healthy open relationship. It centres the child, not the adults needs or desires.

Re Hooves' point about children requesting confidentiality from an adult, which I know other posters have also responded to, this is my example:

DD (

*DD (

In my opinion as the parent, and according to safeguarding rules, the counsellor acted correctly when they broke confidentiality.

They didnt break confidentiality.
They were working within a confidentiality framework which makes clear that responsible adults do not promise to keep secrets about risks of harm to the child or others

I've started a thread about meeting with representatives from a council education department regarding their gender identity policy for schools in the area.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3804103-Safeguarding-advice-needed-gender-identity-policy-in-schools

If anyone has any advice about how I can explain to them that their policy goes against safeguarding principles, please can you post on there? I'm not an expert on this, but I need to be able to point out to them the problems with their policy.

Yes, that's the right way to think about it. It's not breaking confidentiality, it's working therapeutically within a boundaried relationship. One of those boundaries is confidentiality which has exceptions attached - harm to self and others and some legal statutes.

This is made clear at the outset, so the person receiving counselling knows that there are instances where, for their own safety and that of others, the counsellor will consider passing the appropriate and relevant information to a third party. Best practice is for the counsellor to discuss this with their client, that they intended to do so, and work with them in this. Again, this ensures the client can see that the counsellor is working in their best interests, and it helps to maintain the working alliance.

They didnt break confidentiality.
They were working within a confidentiality framework which makes clear that responsible adults do not promise to keep secrets about risks of harm to the child or others

It's so crushing for me to see this framework being destroyed in schools. I would have been such a sucker for a sympathetic adult who promised to be my special confidante, more so if they told me they had answers for my problems. That I could escape being a girl. That my parents didn't understand me, but they did. I would have been so eager to go to special youth group meetings, and wouldn't have thought it the least bit strange that some members weren't youths.

Every day that this basic principle is ignored in schools, young people are getting hurt.

My friend's daughter (15) wants to transition to male. About a year ago they started attending a Youth Club for children in this situation. My friend literally had the door pushed in her face on the first occasion she took them there. She was told no parents, we have children here who don't feel comfortable dressing in a different gender in front of adults, so we respect their privacy.

She didn't meet any of the people her daughter went on to discuss life changing issues with. I don't think she knows who any of them are, what their backgrounds are. I asked her at the time about safeguarding, if they had undergone DBR checks etc? She looked at me like I was being unkind and suspicious. Her answer was oh I'm sure they're all ok, they're all people who've been through the same thing.

A couple of weeks later she told me that her daughter had told her she couldn't work out if the person she had been speaking to at the Youth Club was male or female. They both thought this was fantastic. Her daughter had no idea who this adult was, name, anything.

My friend works in a school. I could cry.

The phrase is “ when you hear hooves , think horses not zebras “.

Well, no, in the case of EDS, which I've got, the saying is hear hooves think zebras

It’s commonly used to remind medical practitioners seeking a diagnosis to consider ( and if necessary rule out ) the obvious things first.

Again, in the case of EDS it means think of rare things, don't assume it's the obvious because it might not be.

The name is totally to do with a diagnosis of ehlers danlos syndrome, nothing else.

About a year ago they started attending a Youth Club for children in this situation. My friend literally had the door pushed in her face on the first occasion she took them there. She was told no parents, we have children here who don't feel comfortable dressing in a different gender in front of adults, so we respect their privacy.

This is deeply concerning.

Parents/adults can/should ask questions of all youth clubs /groups. Who are the adults involved, what are their qualifications for working with children, what are their Safeguarding policies.

My friend works in a school. I could cry.

A lot of people who work in environments governed by Safeguarding frameworks dont understand fundamental Safeguarding principles. They may well be very adept at following what are perceived to be specific 'rules' of the workplace but the fact they cannot or do not apply them in other circumstances is the indicator that they are not understood.

All adults have the responsibility to Safeguard children & vulnerable adults in all circumstances & at all times.

There are too many posts for me to quote individually, but can I clear up some things.

I completely understand the principle of not promising confidentiality - I literally said that very thing in my post.

I understand the process of an individual member of staff reporting to the safe guarding lead.

I don't agree that an adult should be encouraging a child to keep secrets.

I disagree that there is no difference between a child asking to speak to an adult in confidence and an adult asking a child for a private chat - the second one feels like it will always have a sinister element to.it, the first, whilst yes the child should be told that confidentiality cannot be guaranteed is a child seeking help.

I understand there are times when it isn't appropriate for a conversation between an adult and a child to be shared with the parents. That's not saying I'm encouraging secrets between an adult and a child - it's saying that I understand a child may disclose abuse by a parent to a teacher at school, or might eek contraceptive advice from a school nurse and not want the parents told etc.

Im not saying that I think secrets should be kept between an and a child, but that sometimes it isn't appropriate for the parents to be informed about something a young person has said, so long as the organisations safeguarding policy has been adhered to.

In exceptional circumstances, the need to safeguard our clients or others from serious harm may require us to override our commitment to making our client's wishes and confidentiality our primary concern. We may need to act in ways that will support any investigations or actions necessary to prevent serious harm to our clients or others. In such circumstances, we will do our best to respect the parts of our client's wishes or confidences that do not need to be overriden in order to prevent serious harm

The above is an extract from the Ethical Framework of the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy (2018). This is the framework under which it's members operate to ensure best practice.

A lot of people who work in environments governed by Safeguarding frameworks dont understand fundamental Safeguarding principles.

My was a thread recently in aibu about a TA shoplifting / saying she shoplifted and bragging to her colleague. Colleague (the OP) was worried that her friend would loose her DSB if if caught.

My point that this behaviour is unacceptable and incompatible with safeguarding in terms of a culture of blurred boundaries (and so should be reposted to SLT even if only to let them know for any future "bigger picture") was shot down/ dismissed.

And yet I've had specific safeguarding training on this.

It's hard not to be OOT but I do think zebras all the time and then pass it through a number of processes at work including collecting "niggles." Niggles can lead to bigger issues or fill in some gaps that provide a bigger picture.

Neuro We have a good system where I work. Confidential email, straight to the SafeGuarding lead, so they are the one-stop-shop who sees everything. It's not filtered or checked first, no one is copied in. We are encouraged to share any information, however insignificant it may appear, as it helps to build a picture.

As you say, there may be general concerns, "niggles", but doubt, lack of info, nothing making sense. Then another piece of information is shared and the picture changes completely.

Colleague (the OP) was worried that her friend would loose her DSB if if caught

People dont lose DBS.
Its a check which records convictions & relevent police information so that any organisation who employs adults to work with children or vulnerable people are aware of information which is relevent to the post.

Organisations should be empowered to make decisions about potential employees based on not just the information DBS reveals but whether the individual disclosed the offence & their atitude & understanding of it.

Many people who have convictions such as shoplifting in the past make excellent & very responsible employees who completely understand & practice Safeguarding.