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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sue Evans no longer lead claimant on GIDS case has been replaced by detransitioner Keira Bell who had her puberty blocked

26 replies

miri1985 · 22/01/2020 19:38

Ms Bell, a former student, was originally supposed to be supporting Ms Evans’ case as a witness. However she has now become a “substitute” for Ms Evans as the lead claimant following a change in the former nurses’ personal circumstances.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/22/former-transgender-patient-tells-court-sex-change-clinic-putting/

OP posts:
Lordfrontpaw · 22/01/2020 19:46

I hope Sue’s ok. Good on Kiera - I hope she has good support around her (some people are bonkers).

FreedomOf · 22/01/2020 19:51

Just read this. Confused but I thought it could bolster the case maybe as now there is a former young person AND a former psychiatrist bringing the case? Not a legal bod so hoping someone might explain how this might weaken or strengthen the case?

Procrastinator2 · 22/01/2020 19:52

Thank to Sue Evans and the mother for getting the case so far and to Kiera for stepping in who must have great standing as a detransitioner.

GrinitchSpinach · 22/01/2020 20:56

Hope all is well with Sue Evans... Best of luck to Keira.

NeurotrashWarrior · 22/01/2020 21:19

Just seen this via DM on twitter.

Thank you and the best of luck to both of them.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7916945/Woman-given-puberty-blockers-joins-High-Court-fight-stop-drugs-prescribed-children.html

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 22/01/2020 21:20

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7916945/amp/Woman-given-puberty-blockers-joins-High-Court-fight-stop-drugs-prescribed-children.html

Is Keira one of the two young women who spoke at the beginning of the detransitioners event in Manchester, before the cameras were switched on?

If so, I found her story incredibly moving.

Whether it is her or a different reidentified young woman, I applaud Keira’s bravery at becoming the lead claimant. Fuck knows it is these young women that have been so badly let down by a system that is supposed to care for their health and well being.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 22/01/2020 21:21

Snap!

MangoesAreMyFavourite · 22/01/2020 21:23

There's more digging to do, if any one has any spades or showels handy.
Google will show you the way.

Mayomaynot · 22/01/2020 21:56

Good luck, Keira!

AnotherLass · 22/01/2020 22:05

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Keira was the second of the two young women who spoke at the beginning of the Manchester detrans event

I hope that Sue Evans is okay. They said that she is pulling out due to personal circumstances

ChattyLion · 23/01/2020 09:15

Hope Sue Evans is OK. That’s great about Keira Bell joining the case, I’m sure her experience will be very powerful. I wondered if this is the first time a UK detransitioned woman has talked about her experience in court. I’m very grateful to everyone bringing this case in the interests of every child’s right to an open future.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 23/01/2020 09:33

Adding a voice of support & concern regarding Sue Evans, I hope she is okay.

Interesting to see this progress, now. A detransitioner, a parent and a psychologist backing it should hopefully illustrate how dangerous and important this case is.

Off to look for the crowdfunder - just googling the name will hopefully work?

ChattyLion · 23/01/2020 09:51

Googling Susan Evans and crowd justice seems to bring it right up. Grin

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 23/01/2020 09:51

If Keira is who we think she is, she will be a very compelling claimant, I’m sure. Shame there is no compensation on the table in this case (Sue Evans described it as ‘the only thing I have to gain is a clear conscious’) because while I don’t generally support suing the NHS there are times when it’s justified, and anything that helps promote caution at GIDS is a good thing (and if it turns out that puberty blockers, as we suspect, aren’t a ‘harmless pause’ at all, then Polly Carmichael, who has been promoting that idea all over TV and print press, needs to be held accountable).

On the crowdfunding page Sue Evans mentions that her mum passed away in October, I was almost non-functioning 3 months after my mum died, so I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s related to her stepping back a bit? Both Sue and her husband, Marcus Evans are still tweeting, so fingers crossed that’s a good sign that Sue is OK.

NonnyMouse1337 · 23/01/2020 10:55

Joining in to wish Sue Evans well. Hope her personal circumstances ease up soon. Understandable especially if related to her mum's death.

Will do some digging after pay day. I'm grateful to all those contributing to the case.

Kilbranan · 24/01/2020 14:11

I also hope Sue Evans is ok, she has certainly had a lot to deal with recently.
I think that Keira will be hugely influential in getting the concerns across and I am really grateful that she is brave enough to do this Flowers

iamright17 · 24/01/2020 14:15

There is a new statement on their page regarding Kiera. Well worth a read

miri1985 · 24/01/2020 23:11

DM has an interview with Keira Bell - very powerful. I think she'll be a great witness
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7926675/Witness-court-battle-against-gender-clinic-reveals-happened-cry-help.html

OP posts:
MoleSmokes · 25/01/2020 04:55

Good grief!! Thank you for that link miri1985 !

Just a few quotes from the Daily Mail interview with Keira Bell, which BTW does not include a single mention of "gender dysphoria" :

(my bolding)

". . .Keira blames the treatment that began at the Tavistock in North London when, at 16, she no longer wanted to be a girl and asked for help.

After three one-hour appointments, she was prescribed hormone blockers to halt the development of her female body.

Put on what she calls a 'roller coaster' journey, she was soon being given the male hormone testosterone to change her appearance. Three years ago, she had her breasts removed, in an operation paid for by the NHS."

"At 14, I was pitched a question by my mother, about me being such a tomboy. She asked me if I was a lesbian, so I said no. She asked me if I wanted to be a boy and I said no, too.'

But the question set Keira thinking that she might be what was then called transsexual, and today is known as transgender.

'The idea was disgusting to me,' she tells me. 'Wanting to change sex was not glorified as it is now. It was still relatively unknown. Yet the idea stuck in my mind and it didn't go away.'

Keira's road to the invasive treatment she blames for blighting her life, began after she started to persistently play truant at school.

An odd one out, she insisted on wearing trousers — most female pupils there chose skirts — and rarely had friends of either sex.

When she continually refused to turn up at class as a result of bullying, she was referred to a therapist.

She told him of her thoughts that she wanted to be a boy. 'I felt I was not being listened to at school and blamed it on being a girl,' she explains.

'I did not feel respected as a young woman compared with young men. I thought life would be better for me if I changed my sex.'

Very soon, she was referred to her local doctor who, in turn, sent her to the child and adolescent mental health service (CAMHS) near her home. From there, because of her belief that she was born in the wrong body, she was given treatment at the Tavistock "

"At the Tavistock, she says, there was 'no resistance' to her dream, even though she was little more than a child."

"Keira claims she was not warned by the Tavistock therapists of the dreadful symptoms ahead. 'My female hormones had been flushing through my body and, suddenly, a curtain came down on them. It felt pretty bad,' she recalls ruefully.

Worse for her was the disappointment that her body did not suddenly change from female to male. "

"Yet back she went to the Tavistock, where tests were run to see if she was ready for the next stage of her treatment after nearly a year on blockers.

'I was prescribed regular injections of testosterone to make me physically change sex,' she says."

"She was referred to the Gender Identity Clinic in West London, which treats adults planning to change sex.

After getting two 'opinions' from experts there, she was sent to a hospital in Brighton, East Sussex, for a double mastectomy.

'I was 20 and excited,' she says. 'I had been binding my breasts for years. I did not like their appearance. I wanted to get rid of them.'"

"I went in one night and was operated on the next day by a top consultant. My breasts were gone.

'No one at the clinic sat me down beforehand and said: 'Are you certain you want this?' It was all very quick.'

Keira now believes she wasn't thinking straight' "

" When I went online to social chat rooms to talk about it, the pro-transgender lobby kept saying: 'Oh, it's normal to have doubts.'

Finally, she took action. In January last year, soon after her 22nd birthday, she had her final testosterone injection. They were always given every few months by a nurse at her GP surgery. 'I decided never to go again,' she says."

" 'I don't know if I will ever really look like a woman again,' she admits. 'I feel I was a guinea pig at the Tavistock, and I don't think anyone knows what will happen to my body in the future.' Even the question of whether she will be able to have children is in doubt.

She has started buying women's clothes and using female loos again, but says: 'I worry about it every time in case women think I am a man. I get nervous. I have short hair but I am growing it and, perhaps, that will make a difference.'

"By law she is male, and she faces the bureaucratic nightmare of changing official paperwork back to say she is female.

'If I committed a crime, I would be put in a male prison,' she explains. 'I want to get the gender recognition document annulled.'"

"The Government has also launched an inquiry into the explosion in the number of children wanting to change sex.

In 2009/10, 40 girls under 18 were referred to doctors for gender treatment in England.

By 2017/18, the number had soared to 1,806. Over the same period, annual referrals for boys increased from 57 to 713."

" . . . in the High Court this week Keira's barrister, Jeremy Hyam QC, explained: 'What is challenged is the clinic's current and continuing practice of prescribing puberty-suppressing hormone blockers and, subsequently, cross-sex hormones, to children under the age of 18.'

Keira herself said: 'The treatment needs to change so that it does not put young people, like me, on a torturous and unnecessary path that is life-changing. I feel like I've been lied to because it did not make me feel any better.'

As she struggles to return to life as a woman, she adds, with feeling: 'I don't want any more kids to suffer like me.' "

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7926675/Witness-court-battle-against-gender-clinic-reveals-happened-cry-help.html

------

While it is undeniable that some people are 100% certain that transitioning was the right thing for them, it is also blindingly obvious that the ban on anything other than an affirmative approach amounts to enforced clinical negligence. The professional bodies and the NHS bear responsibility for that travesty but GIDS is solely to blame for any failure to ensure that consent is actually informed consent.

No wonder there is such a high staff turnover at GIDS - what was it - 35 psychologists leaving in three years? It would be useful to know how that compares with other NHS "flagship" specialist psychology services. This is a national centre of excellence where you would expect people to be fighting tooth and nail for a job there.

Again and again the same themes when detransitioned "ROGD girls" talk about their experiences, not all in every case but they keep coming up:

  • transitioning because of how women are treated as second class citizens
  • "gender non-conformity" (or "dissent from sexual stereotyping?")
  • general unhappiness
  • "not fitting in"
  • being bullied
  • an adult suggestion about "being trans" puts the idea into their head and it then becomes "fixed"
  • online pro-trans advocates reassuring that doubts about being trans are normal if you are trans, or even proof that you are trans
  • failure by clinical services (psychologist, CAMHS and GIDS) to explore glaringly obvious indicators that there are other reasons for unhappiness than "being trans"
  • failure of GIDS and the adult service to adequately inform and discuss risks and benefits of proposed interventions.

How long could an inquiry into the explosion in the number of children wanting to change sex take when most of the answers are already staring everyone in the face??

How long before the Government joins the dots and stops schools (and the sodding BBC!) teaching impressionable kids that "being trans" is likely as not if a child is the teeniest bit "gender non-conforming" and is a fast-track to "added-value" in terms of adult attention, protection from bullying and enhanced status amongst their peers??

It's hardly bloody rocket science!

My heart goes out to Keira! What an awful situation to be in, medically, psychologically and socially. Yet she and all the other detransitioners who have come out all seem so strong and resilient. Their bravery and stoicism is astounding! Flowers

Datun · 25/01/2020 05:16

How long could an inquiry into the explosion in the number of children wanting to change sex take when most of the answers are already staring everyone in the face??

That's the million question, isn't it?

One wonders if it's the same reason James Caspian was refused permission to research detransitioners. It's not 'politically correct' and social media criticism must be avoided at all costs.

Another answer staring them in the face.

NotBadConsidering · 25/01/2020 05:19

Bloody awful. It really is. I hope she can find happiness.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 25/01/2020 10:41

Thread discussing the article on Keira:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3804708-Stuck-between-two-sexes

OldCrone · 25/01/2020 10:53

How long before the Government joins the dots and stops schools (and the sodding BBC!) teaching impressionable kids that "being trans" is likely as not if a child is the teeniest bit "gender non-conforming" and is a fast-track to "added-value" in terms of adult attention, protection from bullying and enhanced status amongst their peers??

Can I just remind everyone about how the BBC pushes this agenda on children. They say: Being transgender or gender non binary, however, is natural.

In fact being transgender is so natural that it requires irreversible medical treatment such as drugs with horrific side effects and major surgery to remove or radically alter body parts.

www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zt3ck7h/revision/7

I've made complaints about this page, but it's still there, telling children that if they don't fit into rigid gender boxes they might be transgender and will need to have their bodies altered to fit the boxes.

Mass complaining from here got them to change their definitions of gay and lesbian from same gender attracted to same sex attracted. Can we do the same with the crap they're peddling about gender?

Lordfrontpaw · 25/01/2020 11:25

The BBC kids news area on the BBCnews website is very worrying. I can’t believe some of the lines the push (they don’t report, they lecture). Ditto NBC news
App.

MoleSmokes · 26/01/2020 15:28

OldCrone - Can I just remind everyone about how the BBC pushes this agenda on children. They say: Being transgender or gender non binary, however, is natural.

In fact being transgender is so natural that it requires irreversible medical treatment such as drugs with horrific side effects and major surgery to remove or radically alter body parts.

www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zt3ck7h/revision/7

I've made complaints about this page, but it's still there, telling children that if they don't fit into rigid gender boxes they might be transgender and will need to have their bodies altered to fit the boxes.

Mass complaining from here got them to change their definitions of gay and lesbian from same gender attracted to same sex attracted. Can we do the same with the crap they're peddling about gender?

Good idea! Smile