Safeguarding re transgenderism discussion thread

[janeskettle]

In honor of LangCleg.

And because male non users of the site may be able to collaborate with Mumsnet to get individual users banned, but they can't stop women talking about our concerns re safeguarding and transgenderism.
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My interest in safeguarding minors and vulnerable persons from transgender activists and transgender claims comes from personal experience of having a minor child with ROGD, and some years earlier, a mentally unwell young adult child with ROGD.

In both cases, safeguarding was compromised by others claiming to support the individuals involved.

A (non-exhaustive) indication of the kind of concerns faced:

minor child encouraged by youth mental health service to view opposite sex hormones as trivial - no discussion of side effects, either short or long term, written information on side effects was not supplied to minor upon request from parent and was viewed as an issue of concern ie transphobia in parent, minor requiring offers of housing support.

minor child expressed interest in attending a group for T kids. Minor child was under 16, and so was required to have parental permission (good, right ?) Group facilitators refused to answer my questions prior to parental permission (around adult supervision of group, and how this was handled, who was supervising, what were supervision ratios, were supervisors acting as facilitators of discussion between teens or leading discussion etc). In effect, the only way an under-16 can attend if if parents ask no safeguarding questions.

mentall unwell female adult encouraged to spend time with the men on her ward to 'develop his masculine social skills'. Parental questioning of this approach and disregard for female's safety dismissed as transphobia. My daughter was lucky to have a parent willing to be a thorn in the side of the unit and insist that transphobic or not, as a biological female she was vulnerable to male predation and was not to be encouraged to enter the men's ward, under threat of legal action in the case of any resulting assault.

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That's about all I can handle writing about today.

Please share your thoughts, experiences, suggestions on upholding safeguarding norms in relations to transgender activism and transgender advocates.

Bump

Thanks Lay

One of the big things for me is the encouragement of adults to get children to privately message them. For example, Munroe Bergdorf encouraged children to private message them on Twitter and then got all upset when the NSPCC (finally) admitted that Munroe wasn't a good candidate to be an ambassador.

I don't think Munroe had any bad intentions themselves, but, as Lang had so eloquently pointed out many times, encouraging children to privately message adults is a huge safeguarding no no. It erodes their boundaries and makes them more vulnerable to abuse.

This idea of alienating children from their families and encouraging them to put their trust in total strangers online seems to be a big part of the TRA agenda and it's just such a safeguarding fail that I cannot believe that it hasn't been picked up.

Very interesting - what is ROGD please?

ROGD is rapid onset gender dysphoria.

Monna

rapid onset gender dsyphoria (usually in tween/teens with no prior history of childhood dysphoria)

the encouragement of adults to get children to privately message them

Yes, this. Come to your glitter family etc. Breaking down normative family bonds and substituting stranger bonds.

Just thinking some more on the T kids group debacle I mentioned upthread - one of the reasons it shocked me so much is that prior to this, I'd had a lot of experience of kids in all kinds of groups, and the questions I was asking were both standard, but also in other contexts, the group leaders were far more proactive in answering.

Just one example is that for a while, my kids went to a church youth group at the invitation of a friend (mostly for the snacks and games, we're an atheist household). I was wary of them being in a church grou- - I mean, churches don't have the greatest rep for child safeguarding - but in this particular case, all the questions I could possibly have about how the children were kept safe in this group were answered proactively in a sheet sent home for parents to read and sign. In fact, we regularly got information sent home with updates on any issues, upcoming sensitive topics and how they would be handled, leaders available to talk in person or phone to any parent, religious or not.

So flipping churchy youth group can do it, but it's verboten for T Kids group ? No. Unacceptable. You answer a parent's questions, designed to keep your minor child safe, or you shut up shop as unsuitable to be in the supervision of minors.

I’ll come in with my usual rant about schools and the influence of lobby groups.

Lobby groups like LGBT Youth Scotland have no place in schools. Their guidance is dangerous, sends confused children and adolescents down a single path towards medicalisation and works to alienate children from their parents where the parents wish to take a more cautious approach.

See the beauty on p.23 here which tells schools to follow the lead of the child in terms of who to tell, specifically that they do not have to tell a child’s parents that the child is now affirmed as the opposite sex in school:

www.lgbtyouth.org.uk/media/1344/supporting-transgender-young-people.pdf

Also look at the pretty diagram on p.38 which includes gender non conforming children under the “trans” umbrella- explained on the next page to usually refer to children under the age of 12 who may experience similar bullying to trans children, but WTF are they included under the umbrella?

Take this guidance in schools, add an enthusiastic teacher or two and from personal experience, you have a complete breakdown in safeguarding and a leading down a path of social transition that even the Tavistock clinic does not recommend.

Hmmm, my photos did not appear, will try the photos again...

Thank you for picking up the baton.

Wonder how people manage to convince themselves that it's child safeguarding to exclude parents from major and irrevocable decisions re child.

Only by turning 'concerns' into 'abuse', thereby showing a complete lack of understanding of what abuse is and how it manifests. People who follow this 'advice' are not trustworthy to be in charge of kids with ROGD or kids from abusive backgrounds.

Thank you for picking up the baton

If I could pick up a speck of Lang's baton and run with it, I'd be doing well.

That woman is irreplaceable in this conversation. But we can still have it, even if it suffers from lack of her clear, precise, direct input.

Schools rushing to make toilets gender neutral, and simultaneously we hear underage girls are being raped at school something like one a week in the UK, by boys who have continuous access to hardcore porn.

If anyone is in Scotland and wants to do something practical, please do feel free to write to the Children’s Commissioner, Bruce Adamson. He actually endorses the LGBT Youth Guidance. I know I focus on the content about children with GI issues, but the guidance also has all the usual safeguarding risks in it around shared changing rooms, accommodation on trips etc. I’ve written to him- it’s better if children write, but really the more concerns sent in, the more likely someone will start to pay attention.

[email protected]

Great (sad) examples, Qcng

Our schools are not adequately safeguarding girls when they prioritise only a subset of (trans) students.

I think this belongs here:

4thwavenow.com/2019/01/26/my-trans-youth-group-experience-with-morgan-page/

Extracts:

Most of the time, the Trans Youth Group attendees were majority MTFs and “nonbinary” (NB) males. There was an upper age limit (somewhere between 21-25) but it was a pretty small group, usually fewer than 10 people; so when people aged out they just stuck around. I guess others learned that the age limit wasn’t being enforced because more and more older (30-40 year old) MTFs started to join.

I remember one day, there were three MTFs over 40 who were hitting on the teen FTMs, very explicitly. It was obviously making us uncomfortable, but almost no one ever said anything, only changed the topic or tried to engage them in a conversation away from us.

It was very common for the group to discuss the logistics of sex before and after SRS, kinky sex, and erotic fanfiction. I remember Morgan asking the three teens in the room, including me, if we were comfortable talking about this, but obviously we weren’t going to say no now that the conversation had already been started by these older people. I know of at least three FTMs who entered into relationships with older MTFs while in this group, all of which seemed very unhealthy to me. To me, FTMs under 18 dating or sleeping with (usually kinky) MTFs over 20 seemed very sexually exploitative. Healthy boundaries between adults and minors were foreign to this group, much like in the greater queer and trans community.

Mentioning the NSPCC's safeguarding fails, to whit:

1. Endorsing Monroe B, known for soft porn photoshoots, who encouraged children to contact Monroe privately
2. Defending their employee who advertised masturbating in his fetish gear at work and on a work trip
3. Changing guidelines on abuse to say that it was only wrong if it made a child 'uncomfortable', thus blurring the lines.

NSPCC deliver training to schools on abuse, and reporting of abuse, and have statutory powers to remove children.

there were three MTFs over 40 who were hitting on the teen FTMs, very explicitly. It was obviously making us uncomfortable, but almost no one ever said anything

It's actually impossible for me to find a LBG or a T support group for minors here (big AU city) that doesn't mix adults and teens. You can have 14 yr olds attending the same groups as 26 yr olds.

Every attending adult can be as pure as the driven snow, but that's still a safeguarding risk. Under 18's and over 18's should be a division that enforced for both the appearance and the reality of safeguarding.

Shame on those in the group quoted who allowed teens to be harassed by adult males.

I've just read the news on Lang and and in shock and posting carefully.

All I got is this.

I teach my kid not to lie so I'm not having a teacher teach my kid to lie.

That's all I've got.

I'm fuming.

Thank you for this thread, janeskettle.

It's actually impossible for me to find a LBG or a T support group for minors here (big AU city) that doesn't mix adults and teens. You can have 14 yr olds attending the same groups as 26 yr olds.

Bloody hell that's a new thing, surely?

What person in their right mind would group a 26-year-old man with a 14-year-old girl?

No worries, Agrona

Women are allowed to discuss safeguarding of children and vulnerable persons as it pertains to any group in society at all.

In fact, we're required to.

Exempting any one group on 'sacred cow' status is dangerous to children.

janeskettle

"Exempting any one group on 'sacred cow' status is dangerous to children."

This. Also vulnerable people who may be unduly influenced etc.

Also vulnerable people who may be unduly influenced etc

Yes.

Some men are dangers to women, children and vulnerable persons.
Claiming the status of transwoman does not erase that danger posed by those men.

written information on side effects was not supplied to minor upon request from parent and was viewed as an issue of concern ie transphobia in parent, minor requiring offers of housing support.

It is absolutely chilling every time I read another instance of this being done to parents, and I have now read dozens of them.
I can no longer believe that the people who exhibit this cult like behavior mean well. It is too familiar.

I can no longer believe that the people who exhibit this cult like behavior mean well

In some ways, it doesn't matter if people mean well or not, when it comes to keeping our kids and vulnerable others safe.

What matters is that they DO well.

But yes, I don't believe in the supposed good will either. I think there are a whole lot of people out there, deeply uncomfortable with gender non-conformity and homosexuality, who also have saviour complexes and their own unresolved internal lives.