Teenage girls identifying as boys

[LayAllYourLoveOnMe]

Morning everyone I’m still struggling to articulate my own thoughts on this. When I do discuss the issue with friends in real life I feel like I’m parroting things that have been said on this forum

I’ll be grateful for (more) help getting my thoughts in order

I think the starting point is that being born a girl brings unique challenges especially as your body grows and changes in the teenage years. boys and men respond to that (helped by other females) and use a variety of techniques to put you and keep you in your place.

The grey area for me – the area I’m struggling with – is that I can see that a teenage girl who identifies as a boy may well have positive even logical aspirations and aims. The girls who would’ve been tomboys or androgynous in previous eras are likely to come from the same subset of young women who identify as trans today .

I think the essence of objections to this in this forum are that these young women are being mis-sold a solution by people whose motives range from well-intentioned to really dark. What distinguishes us from previous generations of concerned older women? After all this is a story as old as time .

I can see two potential distinguishing features. firstly, all these changes come ultimately from changes in plastic surgery technology and social media technology. Both of these operate to mask the extreme nature of the hormonal and surgical interventions that are on offer. Yet they are extreme and there is a real risk to health. Secondly those institutions that in previous generations would’ve naturally taken on the guardianship/conservative role are failing to do so and indeed often doing the opposite. This leaves the older women as the only people taking the long view and perhaps that is why we are targeted for attack.

Any thought welcome.

If she has the V, don't stick her on the the T

definitely more succinct than my thoughts!!

I was a tomboy with stereotypical boys interests. I felt uncomfortable with how I was treated as a female and the restrictions that were placed on my behaviour, and I felt very uncomfortable with the pressure to adjust and become more stereotypically female. I think it’s very likely that if I was a young teen today I’d identify as male. Not because I particularly felt male, but simply to escape from the unwelcome pressures and restrictions of being female and the constant social pressure to be more girly. Back then it wasn’t an option of course.

Worryingly I think there are groups and ideologies around today that would have pressured and convinced me to identify as male. You aren’t allowed to just be a non-stereotypical female - you must be male. And others are frightened to speak up in opposition to that viewpoint. As I got older I learned to cope with not being a stereotypical female, but it takes age and maturity to not give a shit about other people’s expectations and opinions.

I feel the same Dill.

You could say that some of my behaviours as a youngster were products of an internalised misogyny .... (trying not to be "down among the women" but instead to get ahead, to where the men were) but there was no question of any plastic surgery beyond piecing and pinning back my ears. And there was no question of hormone therapy.

Who in the world is saying you can't be a non stereotypical female, you must be male? I'm very deep into trans activism myself and I have never seen anybody forcing a gender on anybody, just people being supported no matter what they are. If they suddenly realise they weren't trans they aren't kicked out of the tribe or something.

I guess George from Enid Blyton's Famous Five books would be hustled down the path today. Whereas the Amazons just got on with sailing their boat and being pirates - I don't think Arthur Ransome ever went down the 'should have been boys' route.

I’m the mother of a 14 year old girl who currently identifies as a boy. My opinion is that there are a multitude of reasons why there has been an explosion in the numbers- no one really knows why. What we do know is that historically, most children referred to the Tavistock clinic were boys, but now most are girls- total numbers from around 100 a decade ago to 2500 last year. We also know that historically, using the watchful waiting approach (ie no social transitioning or affirming the child as the opposite sex), the vast majority of these children would desist by or during puberty.

We now have a new cohort of adolescent girls (in the main) identifying as boys and many don’t share the same presentation as previously- many did not show signs of GD as children, a significant % are autistic, most present with other comorbidities, many have been influenced by social media (social contagion). Many struggle with social issues and feel they feel they better fit in if they are seen as a boy. Because of this, we don’t know which adolescents will naturally desist under watchful waiting and which will persist.

The new automatic positive affirmation and social transition approach which is pushed onto schools and parents by lobby groups is untested and experimental. There is no long term research showing that this is a better approach than watchful waiting, and it is not recommended by the Tavistock. Many highly experienced professionals warn against it as there are risks involved in affirming children as the opposite sex- a powerful psychological impact when the trusted adults around a child/adolescent validate their belief.

Social transition/positive affirmation is effectively a gateway to medical transition which begins with puberty blockers (upcoming court case against their use) and then almost always then leads to cross sex hormones.

I know there are parents who support the social transition of their child and I would not presume to assume that it is wrong for their child, but generally speaking, I think social transition comes with many unacceptable risks.

"Who in the world is saying you can't be a non stereotypical female, you must be male? I'm very deep into trans activism myself and I have never seen anybody forcing a gender on anybody, just people being supported no matter what they are. If they suddenly realise they weren't trans they aren't kicked out of the tribe or something."

I'm pleased that you haven't seen that rocketmen but I do feel the options are narrowing and always pointing towards being trans. There was a great piece in the Guardian on Saturday about the pressures on girls today and the only non-confirming girl featured was one who self-described as "non-binary" which to me is very different from saying "not intererested in stereotypes" (but maybe for you it is not?)

I personally have had people simply insisting on calling me "cis" and refusing to allow me not to call myself cis. I struggled to articulate why I objected at the time but basically it's because I have a sexed body and a personality, both of which have caused me much trouble over the years but both of which I've come to terms with without needing to add on a "gender identity" also.

I've also noticed that at my children's school there are "safe spaces" for "lgbt plus" people but none for "girls" or "young women". So if you are non-conforming and feel threatened, you can only go to a "safe space" of you can wedge yourself into the LGBT plus cohort.

just my observations if you see some different examples please share.

Thank you rodgmum,

I think the changing nature of the presentations that you talk about is very important.

For a couple of years now I have been on this forum and have felt very frustrated by the muddling together of the issues of middle aged men who decide to transition with the issues of adolescent girls. I was trying to link them together but once you accept that they aren't the same I think it becomes much easier to think about the issue.

So I am finding it much easier to think about children like yours in the context of what girls have always gone through (and their coping mechanisms) rather than bundled together with people born as boys and now in their 40s or 50s.

I have a fairly good friend whom I would describe as a reluctant transactivist and what I have noticed is that she never talks about the experiences of adolescent girls (she is a father - I think that's why).

I think there is a big element of social contagion. Girls who "realise" they are boys (or non-binary) after spending a lot of time on Tumblr or seeing others at school do so. Teenage girls seem particularly prone to social contagion of all sorts.

Also, it's normal in adolescence to feel uneasy about your own body. After all, it's changing rapidly and you haven't had time to feel at home with it. And you're probably also subjected to unwanted attention from creepy men. No wonder a lot of girls feel they're "trapped in the wrong body".

“Also, it's normal in adolescence to feel uneasy about your own body. After all, it's changing rapidly and you haven't had time to feel at home with it. And you're probably also subjected to unwanted attention from creepy men”

This I feel is the starting point for thinking about the issue.

It's absolutely normal ime to feel that newly developing breasts are alien or unwelcome - I wonder if the cis vs trans dichotomy might make young girls believe that feeling ambivalent or unhappy about that is a sign of being trans.

Thanks to easy access porn, the nature of sex has changed as well - girls are under pressure to 'do anal', to be strangled...

I'd be identifying my way out if that scary shit for sure.

It's absolutely normal ime to feel that newly developing breasts are alien or unwelcome
I felt so self conscious about mine. Rude comments and teasing about their size and shape didn’t help. Neither did the obvious embarrassment of older male relatives. I wore baggy clothes till I was about 18. I remember wearing a vest top in summer and my father put a woolly scarf round my neck to cover my visible cleavage. It would have been very easy to interpret my discomfort as “not wanting to be female” if that had been a thing back then. Ditto the discomfort I felt about being expected to shave my legs and armpits and pluck my eyebrows.

This is definitely an area of concern for me. How many teenage girls feel abnormal, scared, like everyone else has it all figured out except them? And in a world where you have a significant cohort of girls wanting to be Kardashians, and pouting in mirrors, no wonder a lot of girls feel unusual for not buying into that. Enter the trans lobby, who assure you that not feeling 'normal' means you're a girl trapped in a man's body, that there are people here who understand you, who feel like you. I'm also concerned about the numbers of girls in the spectrum who identify as trans, for the same reason. I just hope that these girls are able to get out before they do irreparable damage to themselves.

Who in the world is saying you can't be a non stereotypical female, you must be male?
If you’re a young non-stereotypical female you face constant pressure to conform. Well meaning people tell you to shave your armpits because it’s embarrassing and put on some makeup because you look pale. Your Gran buys you frilly dresses and your Mum makes you wear them when you visit. You hear the word “can’t” a lot - you can’t camp out in case someone rapes you, you can’t walk home in the dark - meanwhile you watch boys doing these things unchallenged. Any time the men and women split up to do something separately, you have to go with the women (and the women are usually doing the activity you have the least interest in). Men (who you have more in common with) see you as a potential date not a friend. You get told how your career opportunities will be limited in the male dominated field you’re interested in. Of course if you decide to identify as male then people stop pressuring you and you’re allowed to do the male oriented activities that you prefer!

Yes to all of these posts.

Re the comment below:
"Thanks to easy access porn, the nature of sex has changed as well - girls are under pressure to 'do anal', to be strangled...
I'd be identifying my way out if that scary shit for sure."

yes - obviously some things have got better but other things have got worse.

this thread is really helping me

So some things stay the same-

• uneasy response to one's changing body

-attitudes of men backed up by women (who presumably see no alternative)

• risk and desire of society to put you in your place

And some things are unique to their time and place:

• so today we have (in this country) easy access to the morning after pill but a culture of "do anal...to be strangled" as pointed out above. different variations on an age old problem.

And then the response of society to non-conformity. In some ways it is the same, but in some ways it is unique to today's society (because of the particular technological stage we are at).

I'm really grateful for these responses, feel like I've finally put my mind in a washing machine and rinsed away some of my confusion.

The starting point for me was that I was wondering why I still have warm affectionate feelings towards my transactivist friend (mtf) and it's because she keeps herself entirely apart from the issues facing adolescent girls.

sorry to hear that LangCleg has been banned from mumsnet.

She pissed me off and told me off but that isn't really the point if you have a common interest in keeping children safe.....

@rocketmen "If they suddenly realise they weren't trans they aren't kicked out of the tribe or something."

Would you say that those who transition are supported from within the trans community?

I don't see the trans community being supportive of de-transitioners, and I think more and more people will de-transition.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000dl50/victoria-derbyshire-21012020

I think that de-transitoners are being seen as threat.

But then I am not in the trans community so that is why I am interested in your actual experiences of de-transitioners, Rocketmen.

The idea that you have to be super-feminine to be a girl seems to be much more prevalent nowadays. Anyone who doesn't fit that is being encouraged to believe that they might not be a girl at all. That is what is being pushed in schools that get the 'training'...

The whole notion of “gender identity” is predicated on outdated sexist stereotypes. This is why it is so regressive and pernicious.
My generation fought all this crap back in the 1970’s, when we “women’s libbers” wore dungarees, cut out hair short, eschewed make up and took up posts in male dominated professions without ever once questioning our “identity” as female! It was perfectly acceptable to be a tomboy, to hate dolls etc - I drew moustaches on mine with a biro! Nowadays any girls who don’t fit the sexist stereotype for whatever reason, be that autism or lesbianism or simple personality variation, is pushed towards the trans pathway and the potential lifelong damage of wrong sex hormone treatment or mutilating surgery, instead of counselling and an introduction to their local feminist group.

Nowadays any girls who don’t fit the sexist stereotype for whatever reason, be that autism or lesbianism or simple personality variation,

This isn't true.

But then I am not in the trans community so that is why I am interested in your actual experiences of de-transitioners, Rocketmen.

I personally haven't seen anybody harassed for "de-transitioning". I haven't seen many do it, but those that have have been supported in every way other than when they're actively rude or aggressive towards the trans community, which is...allowed to defend itself as much as any other community.

What's important to say is that just with any other internet/social community, it isn't a hivemind conglomorate. There's not one given rule for all, and some sects of trans people will harass those who detransition and speak out about it. I don't support those people, just in the same way I don't support people who say bisexuality is slutty/a phase/any other biphobia, or that gold star lesbians are the only way to be a lesbian and any others are 'lesser'.

I can't deny those people exist because yes, they do, but I haven't personally seen people driven out of a community for doing what they wanted to do in the first place: explore their gender and what that means to them. I've only just realised what I've wanted to be all my life at the age of 25.

Rocketman: ""Nowadays any girls who don’t fit the sexist stereotype for whatever reason, be that autism or lesbianism or simple personality variation,"

This isn't true."

This is what we see happening to our children. Do you have an example of a girl with autism, same sex attraction, or non-conforming personality variation that has NOT been encouraged to think about where they fit in relation to gender stereotypes and whether they would be happier being perceived as male? Or some other reason why what we see happening is not happening?