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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Surrogate dies in childbirth, leaves behind two of her own kids

676 replies

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 18/01/2020 07:31

"According to the post, Michelle and Chris decided to help another family who wasn't able to have children after they were done having kids of their own.

Michelle was on her second surrogacy for the same family when she lost her life.

Like any other pregnancy, surrogate pregnancies involve the same medical risks of carrying a child and giving birth."

This makes me really angry. Link below.

www.foxla.com/news/california-mother-of-two-dies-giving-another-family-the-gift-of-life?fbclid=IwAR2RgBrXZnWZa1DES4PQWDYMifkY7YCpLy6WVEOoHj6cD145L9Xof1Iy4mI

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13
MopsRUs · 18/01/2020 12:37

Has anyone said the Biblical surrogacy would be considered a good way to go about a present-day surrogacy arrangement?

NotBadConsidering · 18/01/2020 12:38

It’s recent in terms of its relationship with IVF. Someone saw Louise Brown being born and thought “oooh, we could just do that with a borrowed womb for 9 months if people wanted it” and hey presto, that’s what happened a few years later. Hmm

Deadringer · 18/01/2020 12:42

FrogsFrogs yes I hate this idea of an egg being put in a woman's body and it just grows there, while she goes about her business, as if she has just rented out a room she isn't using.

IcedPurple · 18/01/2020 12:46

Has anyone said the Biblical surrogacy would be considered a good way to go about a present-day surrogacy arrangement?

Why are people mentioning it at all?

This type of 'surrogacy' basically meant a fertile young woman - almost certainly from a poor family - being forced to conceive, gestate and birth a child which would be stolen from her at birth to give to rich people.

As I've said, it's basically slavery. Why have people used this as support for the silly 'surrogacy has always existed' argument?

pachyderm · 18/01/2020 12:47

Here's a recent case in Ireland. Rosanna Davison, daughter of Chris de Burgh and model/lifestyle guru/whatever, announces the birth of her baby born from a surrogate

www.thesun.ie/tvandshowbiz/4813415/rosanna-davison-reveals-cut-cord-following-birth-sophia/

"Rosanna jetted off to the Ukraine last week as her surrogate reached 38 weeks of pregnancy and they welcomed their new daughter on Thursday"

Ukraine, full of poor desperate women. It's a huge hub of prostitution, mail order brides and now surrogate mothers.

It's fucking disgusting.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 18/01/2020 12:49

Why are people mentioning it at all?

Because someone said that it was a recent invention.

MopsRUs · 18/01/2020 12:49

massive sense of entitlement that it is an absolute right to have a baby, no matter what

Surrogacy doesn't always work, so it isn't 'no matter what'.

You could also apply the same comment to fertile couples.

noblegiraffe · 18/01/2020 12:52

Biblical ‘surrogacy’ was the inspiration for The Handmaid’s Tale. Jacob having kids with the handmaids of Rachel and Leah.

“Then she said, “Here is my servant Bilhah; go in to her, so that she may give birth on my behalf,[a] that even I may have children[b] through her.” 4 So she gave him her servant Bilhah as a wife, and Jacob went in to her. 5 And Bilhah conceived and bore Jacob a son. 6 Then Rachel said, “God has judged me, and has also heard my voice and given me a son.” Therefore she called his name Dan.[c] 7 Rachel's servant Bilhah conceived again and bore Jacob a second son. 8 Then Rachel said, “With mighty wrestlings[d] I have wrestled with my sister and have prevailed.” So she called his name Naphtali.[e]

9 When Leah saw that she had ceased bearing children, she took her servant Zilpah and gave her to Jacob as a wife. 10 Then Leah's servant Zilpah bore Jacob a son. 11 And Leah said, “Good fortune has come!” so she called his name Gad.[f] 12 Leah's servant Zilpah bore Jacob a second son. 13 And Leah said, “Happy am I! For women have called me happy.” So she called his name Asher.[g]”

I don’t think that sounds like a great arrangement for the ‘surrogates’.

IcedPurple · 18/01/2020 12:52

Because someone said that it was a recent invention.

Unless you're incapable of distinguishing between slavery and 'choosing' surrogacy, then it is a recent 'invention'.

isabellerossignol · 18/01/2020 12:54

The other biblical surrogacy story that springs to mind is that of Hagar. Who again was owned by Abraham and forced to have his child because his own wife, Sarah, couldn't.

IcedPurple · 18/01/2020 12:54

Ukraine, full of poor desperate women. It's a huge hub of prostitution, mail order brides and now surrogate mothers.

Yup. If gestating and birthing commissioned babies is such a wonderful way to make a living, why isn't Switzerland or Japan a popular surrogacy 'destination'? Why aren't Norwegian or Dutch women queuing up to donate babies to Ukrainian women?

MopsRUs · 18/01/2020 13:18

Here is some information on present-day surrogacy in the UK.

Surrogacy UK
Surrogacy UK’s aim is “To create, complete and support families through ethical surrogacy". Their ethos is "surrogacy through friendship".

Surrogacy and the legal process for intended parents and surrogates in England and Wales

Care in surrogacy: guidance for the care of surrogates and intended parents in surrogate births in England and Wales

IcedPurple · 18/01/2020 13:23

Surrogacy UK’s aim is “To create, complete and support families through ethical surrogacy". Their ethos is "surrogacy through friendship".

But they want that 'friendship' to be regulated so that the woman who gestates and births the child - ie the mother - is legally obliged to give up all rights to that child before birth.

So take away the twee wording and you've got an organisation that seeks to deny a mother's relationship with the child in her womb. Some 'friendship'.

MopsRUs · 18/01/2020 13:25

why isn't Switzerland or Japan a popular surrogacy 'destination'? Why aren't Norwegian or Dutch women queuing up to donate babies to Ukrainian women?

Surrogacy laws by country

Surrogacy is illegal in Switzerland and Norway. In the Netherlands, altruistic surrogacy is legal, and in Japan surrogacy is unregulated.

In the Ukraine, both commercial and altrustic surrogacy are legal, so presumably someone looking for a surrogacy arrangement would find it in their own country.

IcedPurple · 18/01/2020 13:29

In the Ukraine, both commercial and altrustic surrogacy are legal, so presumably someone looking for a surrogacy arrangement would find it in their own country.

Unlikely because unless they're part of the elite (many of whom have fled the country) they won't be able to afford the rates which baby buyers from rich countries can pay.

And that's the point - one which you are trying to avoid. Rich women don't make the wonderful 'lifestyle choice' of selling babies to make a living. That's why countries like Ukraine or Thailand - and not Japan or Switzerland - are surrogacy 'hubs'.

MopsRUs · 18/01/2020 13:30

IcedPurple the intended parents bond with the baby during the pregnancy as much as possible with regular visits, supporting the surrogate, attending appointments and so on. Surrogates have usually completed their own family and don't want to be 'left holding the baby' who they never consider to be theirs. The surrogate bonds with the couple, not the baby.

TheTigersBride · 18/01/2020 13:31

It’s recent in terms of its relationship with IVF. Someone saw Louise Brown being born and thought “oooh, we could just do that with a borrowed womb for 9 months if people wanted it” and hey presto, that’s what happened a few years later

It would be arrogant of me to claim that the 18 year old me who expressed vehement concern in 1978 that IVF was acceptable had that level of prescipience, but yes, your comment expresses , with the benefit of hindsight what my objections were.

TheTigersBride · 18/01/2020 13:31

Was NOT acceptable...

IcedPurple · 18/01/2020 13:38

The surrogate bonds with the couple, not the baby.

Are you seriously compaing the relationship between a mother and the child in her womb with those of a couple using her womb for their own wants?

And who are you to say the 'surrogate' (ie the mother) doesn't bond with her own baby? What if she decides she wants to keep the baby? In the old days before contraception and abortion many women who had unwanted pregnancies and intended to give up the baby for adoption changed their minds after giving birth.

Why are you advocating that women relinquish this right just so as to make it easier for 'intended parents'?

BadgertheBodger · 18/01/2020 13:38

Mops the commissioning parents bond with the unborn child do they? They might well. What about the unborn child bonding with them? Not possible is it. We now know that the “4th trimester” is incredibly important for newborns. The mother is the only voice, smell, heartbeat that baby has known. Why is the 4th trimester not considered important if the baby is born to a surrogate? I fail to understand what is “kind” or “altruistic” about intentionally creating a situation which is very much less than ideal for the baby. Fuck the adults in this situation. Even if there genuinely are hordes of would-be surrogate mothers who love being pregnant etc etc, surrogacy is wrong because it can never be in the child’s best interests. Ever.

TheTigersBride · 18/01/2020 13:38

MopsRUs

Has anyone said the Biblical surrogacy would be considered a good way to go about a present-day surrogacy arrangement?

Well you've been banging on about biblical precedents over several posts as if the fact it had always existed was some sort of bizarre justification.

As another poster said unless you're incapable of distinguishing between slavery and 'choosing' surrogacy, then surrogacy is a recent 'invention' so goodness knows what point you thought you were making beyond a really bad thing has been happening for 1000s of years, so that's all right.

Barracker · 18/01/2020 13:43

It occurs to me that in humans, we call the wrong person "the surrogate".

Countless examples in the animal kingdom of other species 'adopting' the newborn offspring born of another animal.
And in every case, we describe the adopting mother as the surrogate. She is the one 'standing in' for the missing actual mother. She becomes the surrogate, the stand in, when the real mother is dead, injured or missing.

Noone questions this. It's apparent to us as observers that the adoptive mother has taken on the role that naturally belonged to another, the mother that gestated and gave birth. They are the acting mother, they are the surrogate.

Isn't it telling, that in humans, we've reversed the naming rule? We call the actual mother 'the surrogate', 'the carrier', 'the birth mother' and confer the title of 'real mother' to someone else - or even erase any mother from the picture entirely.

In humans, we go to some length to vanish, diminish, and repackage the real mother as a minor walk-on, walk-off part, to comfort ourselves that there was some special role-reversal arrangement of nature in our species. It helps make us able to reassure ourselves that what would be unconscionable to do to a cat, take its kittens at birth, is acceptable in humans, because a human mother is deemed less important than an animal.

Nemosnemsis · 18/01/2020 13:44

@TheTigersBride can you explain what your problem is with straight-forward IVF? Fair enough if you disagree with surrogacy and even gamete donation but why conflate these issues with all assisted conception?

FrogsFrogs · 18/01/2020 13:45

Was going to say similar to Badger

'IcedPurple the intended parents bond with the baby during the pregnancy as much as possible with regular visits, supporting the surrogate, attending appointments and so on. '

I misread this and was going to say I don't understand at all how this enables the baby to bond with them.

On rereading I understand that was not what was meant. That it's only the parents who have commissioned the baby that are of interest.

MopsRUs · 18/01/2020 13:45

Natalie Gamble, writing in the Guardian is a fertility lawyer. She isn't against commercial surrogacy, but wants to see proper safeguards.

"Close and enduring relationships between parents and surrogates are common, not just in the UK (where in theory payments are restricted) but also in the US, where compensation is openly paid and agreements are made upfront. What we see on the ground is that the clarity of the US approach to surrogacy actually supports the relationship, with the finances agreed and then put to one side, and with each side feeling the other is benefiting too. Lifelong friendships are common and to be encouraged whether compensation is paid or not."

"the answer is not an unenforceable restriction on payments. It is putting in place proper safeguards to ensure that women understand the risks and implications of what they are doing and give informed consent before a surrogacy arrangement is made."