Female prisoners in Scotland

[BovaryX]

SNP Kenneth Gibson asks if female prisoners shower with anatomical males.

I have been advised by our recently retired governor that there is at least one female prison where anatomically male prisoners and female prisoners are expected to shower together,” Mr Gibson told the Chamber. “Can you advise on whether or not that is the case?

The Justice Minister's response? He 'doesn't know the answer' to that question. Meanwhile, Sturgeon says as a 'lifelong feminist' it's important to protect trans rights.

AnyOldPrion No doubt Mr Yousef is a ‘proud feminist‘ like Nicola Sturgeon’??!!

Not reassuring...

But anyone reading this who did not know that would feel assured that nothing was changing as they would assume nobody would be so stupid as to put intact men in a women’s prison

It's interesting, isn't it? The obfuscation is deliberate. It's policy by the backdoor. Implemented without public debate

Scrimshaw

Thanks for posting the link. Sums it up.

Yes you’re completely right - The use of the word ‘convince’ negates any point of the consultation.

She say that it is a contentious issues.

Too bloody right.- Locking full bodied adult Transwomen (yes - that’s men) in the same cell as any woman - particularly female inmates who are most likely to have been victims of sexual violence - is FUCKING contentious.

It’s clearly lunacy to place a trans man in a male prison for the same reason it’s lunacy to place a trans woman in a female prison.

But the needs of females don’t count.

Add that 'convince' of the consultation to Somerville's recent claim that she'd met with For Women Scotland, when she hadn't.

Stitch up, anyone?

Just a little bit angry about this, in our shining democratic socialist paradise.

It’s clearly lunacy to place a trans man in a male prison for the same reason it’s lunacy to place a trans woman in a female prison

Absolutely. It is so insane, it's difficult to wrap your head around the fact this is actually happening

But as Lewis Moonie asked yesterday

If self-id comes into law, and everyone - the police, the courts, the prison - records a defendant's sex as per their self-identification, and treats them accordingly, and so places all males who identify as trans in the female estate by default, then wouldn't females who identify as trans also by default be placed in the male estate?

And if not (and we all know why not), then how would you justify that? And how would you justify that without at the same time also justifying not placing males who identify as trans in the female estate?

(As it takes time for cases to come to court, it's highly likely that a defendant can get a GRC before the trial even starts. And because there is no provision within the draft bill to change your legal sex back, any female with a GRC stating she is legally male, would not have an easy way to change back.)

I'm saying this, because we were informed unequivocally last night that legal experts as well as those working within the prison system agree that this will be the consequence of the planned GRA reform.

If all biologically male prisoners who wish to can be placed in female prisons, then judging by the numbers of cat A sex offenders, there will rapidly be female prisons in which there is nobody actually female other than some guards.

So women have their right to safety and dignity completely removed whilst the rates of "female" crime will rise. Fanfuckingtastic, having to meet in secret to discuss women's rights due to threats of violence, obviously nothing to worry about here Nicola Sturgeon. Move along, nothing to see here

Michelleoftheresistance

there will rapidly be female prisons in which there is nobody actually female other than some guards.

Rhona Hotchkiss, the former prison governor, last night predicted that if the current course continues and GRA reform comes to pass, there will be more men in the female estate than women.

She said there are now 22 males who identify as trans within the Scottish prison estate, not all of whom are in the female estate*. When she started ten years ago there were just 2.

Isn't that a horrifying way to put it - "not all of whom are in the female estate". If the majority of these men were in the male estate, then this would be expressed by saying "not all of whom are in the male estate". So that means at least a dozen men are in the female estate in Scotland. And we know how much harm just one aggressive male can do to women...

If the policy is that one biological female cannot be placed in the male estate for obvious safety reasons, one has to wonder how much the ratio of biologically m/f has to tip before the same concerns are inevitable for the f people and this has to be acknowledged. You can't recognise biology and reality in some selected situations while denying you can see it in others. It's ridiculous.

I'd like a number from one of these politicians helping this happen on their watch please, of how many women have to suffer harassment, assault, violence and harm before the interests of female people are regarded with equal consideration to male people in this context. Ball park. What's acceptable amount of collateral damage to the human rights of females to further the provision of wider choice and wellbeing for males?

And I'm utterly staggered at the depth of the sexism inherent in the system that I even have to seriously ask that question.

If trans men are not housed in the male prisons, where are they located?
Maybe all the women prisoners should self-identify as trans men and we can have a separate well designed facility built just for them. The trans women can have their lady prisons all to their feminine selves.
The male prison guards can self-id as women. I wonder how that would go down.

If transwomen are women how can you put them into male prisons?

How can you tell that they are the type of woman that has to go to a male prison and has no choice in this?

How can they insure that women don't end up in a male prison by mistake?

I mean biology is bigotry and we should police the contents of people's pants because it is irrelevant and there shouldn't be pant inspections. Lady penises in the shower are just fine because...

Either you believe that transwomen are women or you don't and if you don't then you are a bigoted terfy mcterf.

These people are so unbelievably stupid and desparate to prove they are woker than woke that even when they are acknowledging the issue they still can't admit it and they still can't say that gender critical women have a valid case, because they are evil terfs.

Honestly its shameful how they are handling this. Utterly shameful.

Clarification on risk assessment in prisons following #fmqs - SPS risk assessment process in relation to accommodating a trans person takes full account of any risks they may present to other prisoners, to staff and to themselves

Does it, though? Does it really? Because if they've been taking their "guidelines" from groups that think that unexpected penis in the women's showers is something that only evil bigoted witches could have concerns about it probably doesn't.

Thing is no matter which way they try to spin this if even one trans identifying male is placed in the women's estate then any others denied placement can claim discrimination. All or non.

This slippery non committal case by case fudgery is unacceptable.

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison

Over a year on and nothing changed, nothing learned.

I seem to remember from discussions on this pre or around the time of the White attacks on female prisoners, posts saying:

• Panels debating transfer of a prisoner to the female estate were advised solely by transgender advocates

• At these panels only the needs and risks to the prisoner were considered; the female prisoners were never even raised as a subject

• Risk assessments focused on the potential risks to the transferring prisoners, such as immediately removing any female who made the transferring prisoner feel unsafe.

• Policy was guided wholly by TRA groups and agencies. Females as a group were never in any way consulted, considered or represented in formation of policy.

I seem to remember on those threads there were either a poster or two with personal professional experience or who shared posts or records of this. The situation may have changed post White, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Because if they've been taking their "guidelines" from groups that think that unexpected penis in the women's showers is something that only evil bigoted witches could have concerns about it probably doesn't

It's the usual 'we can't possibly expect this one individual to suffer the humiliation and distress to their feelings of being offered separate, private facilities to shower in BUT we absolutely can expect every female in the situation to swallow their humiliation and distress to feelings and fear to get naked next to this fully intact biological male stranger.'

As I often point out, you see this absolute gross divide between what's good enough for the male person in the situation and what's good enough for the female in almost every domestic abuse situation.

Clearly, TheProdigalKittensReturn those who seek to allay our concerns use a different definition of risk to us. We know the majority of female prisoners have been victims of far worse crimes than they themselves have been imprisoned for. We know that most of them have been abused by men from a young age. As Rhona said yesterday, most of them have never had a nice man in their lives.

They have been and are traumatised by men. And we know from hundreds of thousands of case studies and research papers and books and articles and medical notes, that deeply traumatised female victims are frequently and involuntarily re-traumatised by the mere presence of males. Regardless of their presentation.

So we know that a male prisoner will retraumatise any number of these women by his mere presence. We also know, because Rhona reported this at the meeting, that precisely this has happened.

Now I don't know whether a nice guy imprisoned with women would have caused quite as much harm as the not-so-nice guys who were put into the Scottish female estate, but it's not rocket science to expect that a guy bad enough to get locked up in prison is not going to be all that nice.

So what risks are they looking at? Risks to mental and emotional well being are clearly not looked at. Risk of violence? Rhona told us if a guy had a violent history, including sexual and/or physical violence against women and children, that wasn't too recent, they still qualified.

So what risks are they looking at?

Ah, Michelleoftheresistance has answered that already. Risks to just one party. The only one that matters.

Yep it’s all about the mighty penis regardless of whether it’s a male or female penis

If they don’t care about female prisoners what about female guards? Surely the risk assessment for female guards is different when dealing with male prisoners?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-inmates-won-t-get-jail-choice-8l8kmnnhs?shareToken=1faf05f509c2bb15f0777257ec036327

Today's Times.

Cismyfatarse I'm afraid that's just an exercise in obfuscation.

Gender recognition certificates will not give transgender prisoners the right to choose whether they are sent to male or female jails, the justice secretary has said.

As Rhona Hotchkiss (former Scottish Prison Governor) told us yesterday, not one of the male prisoners currently located in the female estate has a GRC.

Yusaf is not lying by the way - the Scottish Government making it easier to receive a GRC will not make a difference. That's because a GRC is already not a requirement for a male to be transferred into the female estate. The Scottish Prison Service is operating on a purely self-ID basis.

Wasn’t there some guy from prison service involved in writing guidance later found in possession of child abuse images ?

Need rowan backm for this stuff

This linked article is quite something. Oh no, someone in the special transwomen's wing of the women's prison was bored!

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transgender-prison-wing-failed-its-inmates-phqkp0qff?shareToken=2a3076943d9bf9fabc221189f5585d05

Best response - "It's a prison not a daycare center"

Omg kittens. That piece.

They are in prison