Mountain spine race comments made me smile

[moobar]

Mountain spine race over pennies currently taking place.

Last year it was won by Jasmine Paris who smashed the female record and the male time and was expressing milk as she did it.

This year a man has beaten the male time but her time remains best overall by far.

It's a hell of a race in gruelling conditions. The comments on the page are about how it must have been easier last year etc. One lady comments "headline man fails to beat woman's record, sub heading, there must be a reason"
And "we are getting the reasons mansplained to us. She set the record and beat the men who were racing alongside her because there were more oestrogen friendly conditions".

I run and the men I run with were nothing but amazed, in a hero worship kind of way, by her achievements last year.

I haven't seen the comments this year, but the male runners I know understand that they have the power, women have the stamina Women's ultra times have been getting very close to the men's for a long time now.

She was amazing. Oh yes I should clarify that the comments are from random people not fellow competitors. I was at the end last year and everyone was in awe at her. So was reading out of interest this year.

Did you see the recent article?
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jan/03/female-ultra-athletes-leading-field-women-less-ego

Jasmine Paris is a phenomenal athlete and I'd love to see her in a head to head race with John Kelly (this year's winner) to see who would win. However the conditions were without doubt easier last year. This year hasn't had the heavy snow of some previous years but it has had deep mud and heavy storms.

I heard her talk in Scotland last year - she is fantastic and clearly an amazing athlete.

Much of her motivation to get The Spine finished was that she wanted to get back to her family and daughter that night. I can understand that and see that it could have been v powerful motivation...

She is so lovely and unassuming. She is also a phenomenal runner with extraordinary mental strength. In the Ultra events it is who wants it more, is better at not faffing when sleep deprived and keeping going without sleep that wins. If you look at moving speeds there is not much in it.

Mental strength and organisation do play a much bigger role in multi-day events. However the front runners are still fast runners. To win a competitive multi-day ultra being fast is necessary, but not sufficient.

There is in fact no evidence that the gap between men and women gets smaller as race distance increases (apart from in swimming). In running races the difference in world records is constant, at roughly ~10%, for distances from 100m up to six days and beyond. However in niche events with small fields women sometimes win overall, if there aren't similar calibre men in a particular race. Eoin Keith (previous Spine record holder) himself has said that Jasmin is world class whereas he (and by extension the other men who've entered the race previously) aren't.

IMHO, arguing that Jasmine's overall win (and other similar exceptional performances) demonstrates that women are better at ultras than men actually undervalues how phenomenally good she is.

Apologies for gate-crashing the thread, but I was talking about ultra marathons with my kids. They asked if you get to sleep when you are running such long distances, but I didn’t know and the first couple of google hits only focussed on the distances, not the ‘how’. Are the races run all on one long, gruelling canter/trot/hobble, or are there breaks?

I’m really fascinated about how women do well over these much longer distances. It strikes me that childbirth requires a level of physical endurance and mental toughness, so perhaps women do have some advantage in these kind of gruelling event.

@boatyardblues in multi-day events yes people sleep, but for relatively short periods of time. In races up to a week the front runners will average the equivalent of about an hour a night (but not an hour each night). More typical runners will average 2-4 times that. Short (5-10) minute power naps can be effective. The trade off between sleep and speed is interesting, and tricky to get right. When you're sleep deprived you struggle to navigate, sometimes hallucinate and often don't realise quite how slowly you're moving.

Thanks ehtelp.

'I’m really fascinated about how women do well over these much longer distances. It strikes me that childbirth requires a level of physical endurance and mental toughness, so perhaps women do have some advantage in these kind of gruelling event.^'
^
Ah, childbirth - the badge of honour. So do people want certain sports events to have completely open fields? No age, sex or any other categories? If so, which ones?

Jasmine's achievement was amazing, and all the male runners I know were suitably impressed and full of praise.
In fact, all the runners I know are very supportive of each other, and some of them are amateur ultra runners.

I taught that for years. Ultra's have long been mooted as the kind of sport in which women. Sadly I stopped teaching before studies started showing concrete reasons why and how.

Female physiology is significantly different from male physiology (no, really. Don't TERF me, it just is!!!!!!) with greater distribution of slow twitch muscle fibre, less fatigue-related change in peak power, less change in power and speed overall, etc, would be the prime athletes. Men have greater maximal capacities, higher, faster stringer. But the longer the distance, the less of a gap between men and women.

Oestrogen seems to be a significant factor too

So, if people want certain sports events to have completely open fields current studoes could find a distance that can be run that will allow this. The distance may change as training regimes change, but Yes! There will be an ultra distance that men and women can compete in with no sex based advantage!

I was in the crowd that witnessed her smashing the Bob Graham Round Womens record. She is an amazing athlete. She had kept details of her attempt quite low key but because she smashed the record there was 700+ walkers due to do an evening event on Catbells still hanging about outside the Moot Hall

A little bit of serendipity gave her BGR the immediate attention it deserved and no doubt many more people like me who’ve followed her since.

Video capturing her arrival at Moot Hall at the bottom of page.
www.inov-8.com/blog/jasmin-paris-bob-graham-round-record/

Ultra runner here. Jasmine Paris is a fantastic runner and I'm in awe of her achievement. But in every ultra I have ever done, on average the male field does better than the female field. It is true that there is a more level playing field in ultra running than in shorter distances, but I don't think it is properly level. The only chance I have of beating my (male) partner is in a race of 50+ miles, but even then it needs him to have a bad day with nutrition etc.
One of the reasons women win mixed races is because it is a more niche sport with fewer competitors overall. Whilst it is great all competitors race together, I'd still like to keep separate categories by sex

Hmm, the low numbers and niche sport could explain it somewhat.
I do a relatively niche sport - archery - and while we have separate male and female catergories, it's not unusual for a woman to outscore all the men. Some of the female club records exceed the male, due to one exceptional female archer.
But at national events, it's much rarer, and international I don't think the leading female outscores the leading male ever.

(genuine question) deydodo...: how much of a role does physical strength play in archery (and how much is technique)?

IMHO, arguing that Jasmine's overall win (and other similar exceptional performances) demonstrates that women are better at ultras than men actually undervalues how phenomenally good she is.

I agree with this.

She is a phenomenal athlete. The men who get close to her time are not-quite-as-good as her, as men still have a physical advantage.

We should keep the separate categories by sex.

ehtelp

Well. If you look at the top levels, the men use stronger bows than the women. This allows faster arrow flight, straighter trajectories, and less effect of wind and such. And to hit the further distances.
At club level, the maximum distance women shoot is 80yd or 70m, whereas men shoot to 100yd or 90m, so they need stronger bows.
However, for olympic archery, both shoot to 70m.
And indoor, they shoot to 20yd, so bow strength isn't required, men could use weaker bows.
But the argument still stands that for a given strength bow, men with greater strength would find it easier to draw and hold, so they would get an advantage.