Robert Winston Radio 4 Today Programme

[PaleBlueMoonlight]

Interesting piece by Robert Winston on medical transition just now, as part of a piece on waiting times for gender surgery.

Apart from him using "gender" where the correct word should have been "sex" a number of times, that was very interesting. He's been watching for this for decades, he has a good sense of the limitations of gender reassignment surgery, his concerns are growing, but significantly he's realised he has to voice his concerns and more importantly he wouldn't have been able to do this on the BBC a year or two back.

More evidence of a major shift going on in what people think and what they're feeling confident enough to say.

Yes. He was not willing to just talk about the acceptability of long waiting times, but clearly felt the need to explain the bigger picture. I thought his language was very interesting, clearly intended to straddle the knife edge (to use a terrible metaphor). The fact that some of his language really jarred with me probably means that he got that right.

When it comes up on iPlayer I will put it up. In the meantime, it was at around 8.45 am.

He mentioned detransitioners and a need to look into why people feel they need to 'change sex'. He does seem to believe in the existence of ladybrains, though.

I thought the ladybrain thing was him hedging his bets as a scientist who won't rule out the possibility that it might exist until there's convincing proof that it doesn't. Unfortunate to even refer to it being a thing though.

Loved how he referred to the woman they had on who thinks she's a man, as "the person".

Yes, his references to 'brain gender' made me but I think the references to 'genetic gender' were possibly an attempt to keep the conversation accessible to the masses rather than making a stand over gender vs sex. He clearly appreciated they were different which was important, but getting wound up in disputes over terminology in such a limited time frame would have been problematic, particularly when those that aren't active in the debate are trying to understand.

What he said about seeing significant regret in detransitioners was really important though, although the way he answered some of the questions did make it sound like the waiting times are intentional rather than due to capacity, so maybe some additional clarity would have been helpful (either 'it's policy to wait because it's better for patients', or 'I believe waiting is a beneficial by-product of limited capacity which is caused by the significant increase in the volume of referrals, so we shouldn't be too quick to label increasing wait times as a problem to be fixed and instead should use the opportunity to research the possible benefits').

I'm glad he made the distinction between adults and children too.

I thought this was pretty hard hitting for the BBC ...Winston did choose his words very carefully, but it was clear he considered f to tm surgery dangerous ( m to tw less so) and pointed out that other forms of surgery may need a wait for proper assessment and treatment , and with the numbers of caution is probably a good thing. He does not accept that you can change sex. I was impressed. presumably as a fertility specialist he will be seeing patients dealing with the aftermath of sterility due to transitioning.

Numbers of detransitioners

I thought it was very interesting
He was obviously choosing his word with care (such as “this person”) but his general tone was that we need to focus more on the causes rather than just prescribe drugs and cut bits off people. It was also good that he differentiated children.
He’s Male and very well respected, I doubt he will get much abuse for his views, or even care.

As I’ve said before, it’s not about ‘ladybrains’.

It’s about recognising that prenatal hormones do affect brain tissue and variations in prenatal hormone exposure most likely influences sexuality and potential gender identity development.

Equally it’s becoming more important to recognise that there may be other influences in the ethology of gender dysphoria and that transition as therapy could be being over used.

Isn't it interesting that the BBC have suddenly realised that their job is not to push an ideology favoured by many of their staff their staff, but to accurately represent different aspects of this issue?
Now if we could get them to remember that the protected characteristics of the Equality Act include sex (as opposed to their favoured but inaccurate gender), that would be another small step.

gender identity development.

You mean development of an inclination to view cultural stereotypes of gendered behaviour as important.

OldCrone, I automatically replace “gender identity” with “sexist stereotypes” whenever I read it. It clarifies the issue greatly, I find!

Uncompromisingwoman: I think even the BBC are beginning to recognise that the transitioning of children might end up not on the right side of history after all and realising that promulgating only one side of the debate might not be viewed favourably by the public and particularly by a BBC-sceptical government in the future.

I thought the ladybrain thing was him hedging his bets as a scientist who won't rule out the possibility that it might exist until there's convincing proof that it doesn't. Unfortunate to even refer to it being a thing though

Hormones are pretty powerful substances. They must surely effect the brain too.That is not to suggest, though, that our brains in and of themselves are wired inherently & structurally in different ways. But our bodies are systemic, and that includes the brain.

There was a very fair report of the case against the Tavistock on R4 yesterday. Unbelievably fair. Something has definitely happened at the BBC. Someone has paid attention to all the complaints and realised the standard of news reporting had become ludicrous.

Shameful that they got so sloppy, so biased and so cavalier about honesty. I won’t stop complaining till they are back in order - everywhere.

hormone exposure most likely influences sexuality and potential gender identity development

That does not follow......hormones effect emotional response and certain types of mental function. That has got nothing to do with a 'gender identity' or sexuality. 'Gender identity' appears to be the term used by some for explaining certain types of feeling or way of thinking about some things; or for certain types of aesthetic preference.

Robert Winston was absolutely instrumental in persuading people to create the GRA.
He was galloped into the House of Lords during the debates, where he proceeded to burble every conceivable TRA fake science trope.
Intersex.
Sex is a spectrum.
Terribly difficult to determine sex.
Ladybrains.

He was one of the key turning points, referred to by Tebbit as the govt bringing in the cavalry. He was massive at the time, always on TV, running 'child of our time', and the lovable, moustachioed, twinkly-eyed professor we all loved and trusted.

The House of lords lapped it up, bar those few who challenged his misinformation.
But the damage was done.

So if Robert Winston is coming to regret, 15 years later, that his earnest 2004 appraisal of spectrummy sex and ladybrains has led to the irreversible damage of hundreds of children and thousands of adults who believed him when he advocated we should encourage people to try to change sex?
Too little, too late.

If he feels any regret for his own part in bringing this sorry current situation to pass, I hope he can find his own balls and say, without caveat "I was wrong, I never should have made those claims. Sex is real, sex is binary, sex is immutable, and noone should ever encourage anyone to believe they can change sex, because only harm will result. I'm sorry"

But he won't.

Hundreds of people have suffered because he backed an ideology that told people incomprehensible, sexist nonsense about what female and male means, and he was willing to solidify that nonsense into the gravitas of a law forcing the rest of society to play along.

I can perhaps one day forgive the key players who were too stupid to understand that you can't change sex. I won't forgive those who knew all along but still made this all happen.

'Gender identity' appears to be the term used by some for explaining certain types of feeling or way of thinking about some things; or for certain types of aesthetic preference.

It doesn't seem likely that this comes about due to the influence of prenatal hormones. 'Gender' is cultural. If a boy is exposed to more oestrogen in the womb it won't make him more likely to like pink or to want bows in his hair.

Great post barracker 💪

Yes, thank you Barracker. I had no idea about Robert Winston.

That was enlightening. Thank you, Barracker.

Another one who had no idea about Robert Winston. It's just a Pandora's box with the casualties being the vulnerable and children.
It is real progress to see the BBC, Guardian and now people like Winston start recognising that harm being done to children cannot be brushed aside and having to allow truth and facts creep into their narratives (occasionally)

Well said, Barracker

So if Robert Winston is coming to regret, 15 years later, that his earnest 2004 appraisal of spectrummy sex and ladybrains has led to the irreversible damage of hundreds of children and thousands of adults who believed him when he advocated we should encourage people to try to change sex?
Too little, too late.

Fucking hell. Isn't it just. I'm so disappointed in him.

A man who is terribly interested in the behaviour of children, but still so steeped in sexism, that he believes in lady brains?

And yes, an unequivocal apology is the only way to make up for this horrific mess that he is now desperately trying to limit.