Interesting column about Nazi collaborators

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From David Aaronovitch, in the Times. www.thetimes.co.uk/article/we-can-never-be-sure-wed-be-the-good-guys-mt0rbqxpn?shareToken=d91af49e9cd7dcc158e747d673e43ff3

Aaronovitch suggests that we can never be sure that we’d be the good guys, and that many would collaborate either willingly or passively and it stuck me that in terms of women’s rights that it’s all ready happened.

We’ve been invaded, our institutions have been captured and yet it is feminists who are viewed with suspicion. The collaborators gleefully inform on the resisters for woke points while the resistance is confined and controlled fearing for their jobs and personal safety.

How interesting that it’s the feminists who are often referred to as Nazis.

I’ve been thinking a lot about this recently, particularly over the past few days when Andrew Thorne (social worker who actively tweets about GD in children/teens) was reported to his professional body. I’ve been mentally comparing it to life in the Iron Curtain where so many very ordinary people stayed quiet out of fear and others just accepted this was life.

I think we are at a tipping point right now and I’m shouting as loudly as I can about it, both anonymously (re our personal situation with our daughter who thinks she is a boy) and non-anonymously (re women’s rights in general) and I get an awful lot of shit for it. However, it’s easy for me to do because I don’t have a job to worry about losing and my close friends all agree with me. Then I look at my husband who will manage a mumbled, “It’s complicated”, and other people who I would expect to speak up either staying silent or joining in the shouting, and think that yeah, I now understand how countries can shift so quickly when people don’t speak up.

Yes - that's it isn't it? Most people don't believe humans can change sex, but they can't or won't speak up about it and the bandwagon rolls on.

What I learn from this is that people are very willing to adopt the current religion. And this is a state sponsored religion. They don’t even have to care - they just see that this is the latest diktat and they nod and get on with their day. There’s no need to inquire.

Tbh there’s nothing really in it for me to object. I can afford to keep myself and my children safe. They - for various reasons - seem atm unlikely to get caught up in the cult. But I object because I have a mind and I can think. Once the scales fell from my eyes I couldn’t unsee it and I can’t not say it.

Are you comparing gender critical feminists to victims of genocide?

Er no. It’s about how ideology takes over and ordinary people stand by and do nothing. Like the question of how ordinary Germans colluded/collaborated/did not speak up against Nazism.

It's about how people turn a blind eye or actively collude with an ideology of genocide. It's not a new argument. To make the comparison with the actions of TRAs or so-called 'trans ideology' is both a massive stretch and incredibly offensive.

Offensive? Everything’s offensive though isn’t it. Let’s bear in mind that we are just a week on from people talking about actually burning books of an author who tweeted biological reality. It’s perfectly possible to draw comparisons to the suppression of language and freedom of thought in totalitarian regimes without moving on to the genocide parts. It’s a completely accurate comparison.

so-called 'trans ideology'

Why soi disant? Don't you think there is a sociopolitical ideology underpinning genderism? Whether you believe such to be totalitarian and supremacist or not?

No, it's not an accurate comparison. It really isn't. There is no comparison between someone disagreeing with you, even in a deranged and, frankly, ridiculous manner, and the complicity of those who go along with systematic, large-scale murder of entire ethnic groups. There really isn't. I'm utterly astonished that anyone could make that comparison.

And before anyone says it, no ethnic cleansing doesn't start out saying 'hey, let's kill all the X', but it certainly starts by demonising all the X and blaming them for any/all problems a society faces. This is not happening here. No one is suggesting all the country's ills are caused by GC feminists.

That's the whole point of the article - for people to consider where they would be in relation to an evidently wrong / evil ideology. Didn't take long for someone to try to shut women up from discussing the issue did it?

LangCleg

I don't believe it is trans ideology, I believe is is plain, old-fashioned misogyny which has found a bandwagon to jump on.

Are you comparing gender critical feminists to victims of genocide?

As the daughter and granddaughter of Holocaust survivors I do not find this link at all offensive. How do you think a society went from an enlightened democracy to a society where the systematic disenfranchisement and dehumanisation of distinct groups was enshrined in law? By capturing institutions; by encouraging and legitimising private prejudices; by silencing doubters and dissenters through bully tactics. And where did that lead...?

While I do not think women are at risk of genocide - we are far too necessary as breeders, carers and trophies - those same tactics are deceiving and silencing people into the appearance of collusion.

Gender critical feminists are the canaries for the damage this neo-religion will do to all women.

That's the whole point of the article - for people to consider where they would be in relation to an evidently wrong / evil ideology.

There's a world of difference between being wrong and being evil. And once again, this article is about people who stand by while genocide takes place, not people who form erroneous opinions that don't include industrial scale murder. The two are very different.

Didn't take long for someone to try to shut women up from discussing the issue did it?

Yeah, that's right. I'm here to shut women up. Only joined this morning for just that reason

It could be any sort of ideology. This is how religion and ideology work. The religion-like elements of this ideology are what terrify me the most actually and it’s all there - the controlled speech, the casting out of heretics, the magical thinking.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Collaboration can be passive as well as intentional.

I don’t suppose most Germans knew about the industrial scale murder though. They weren’t asked to collaborate in that. They were asked to collaborate in the silencing of dissent and the state control of language. That’s the comparison that’s being made.

Once these controls were in place the rest was unstoppable.

I don't believe it is trans ideology, I believe is is plain, old-fashioned misogyny which has found a bandwagon to jump on.

It's got a specific theoretical underpinning. Based on postmodernism and its bastard child, queer theory. It thinks of itself as libertarian but, in denying any structures of power entirely, opens the door to totalitarian supremacy (because wishing them away does not render the structures of power non-existent).

You're in denial.

Didn't take long for someone to try to shut women up from discussing the issue did it?
You mean express a view you disagree with? Don't you see the irony in complaining about "shutting women up" when making a comment like that?

Yeah, that's right. I'm here to shut women up. Only joined this morning for just that reason

Indeed- your username is long standing.

I've read a bit on how misogyny ramps up as societies decay, become more authoritarian and civil liberties are curtailed.

I think I see various flags about at the moment, the feminism issue is one part of a larger and more disturbing trend. I think we're more threatened than we realise by climate change, which is raising the issue of large-scale migration and thus immigration, the general danger and level of threat, which is ramping up tensions and insecurities, hence the rise of the right and the stamping down on freedom of speech and thought and the further oppression of women. The manipulation and misrepresentation of the media is pretty terrifying to see. Elections are now largely fought via soundbite, meme and social media. Good information is getting harder to find and trust.

collaborate in the silencing of dissent and the state control of language

Repeat after me: Transwomen are women. There is no debate.

Er, this is a bit depressing, I'll stop for now.

PikesPeaked I also have, or rather had, family member who died in concentration camps - does my opinion negate yours, or vice versa?

How do you think a society went from an enlightened democracy to a society where the systematic disenfranchisement and dehumanisation of distinct groups was enshrined in law? By capturing institutions; by encouraging and legitimising private prejudices; by silencing doubters and dissenters through bully tactics. And where did that lead...?

I know how the Nazis came to power. And Germany wasn't an enlightened democracy. A democracy, yes, but one with so many social issues it was vulnerable to being hijacked. But it's not just about Nazi Germany. As I said earlier, no one is portraying GC feminists as vermin who are responsible for social and economic problems (although there are groups being depicted in that way). There is no comparison between GC feminists and European Jews, or Kosovars Muslims, or Turkish Armenians. It is crass and offensive to suggest there is. People may disagree with you, but no one has formed political parties to demand your removal from the country, no one is portraying you as detrimental to national security, there isn't a group called Trans First who have the ear of the POTUS and the PM, and who boast about joining the political party currently in government. (In fact, the leader of an equivalent ethnically motivated party fully supports you.)

I know it was a mistake to step back onto this section - I'll go back to hiding it.

Saskia, that would be a shame. I like hearing views that are different to mine, I hope you stay around.

There is no comparison between someone disagreeing with you, even in a deranged and, frankly, ridiculous manner

Saskia Except it’s not just “someone disagreeing with you”. You are painting a picture of verbal exchanges with no real consequence but there are consequences happening right now. I’d welcome you to come swap lives with me for a few days. I’d welcome you to come along to my meeting at school the week after next where I need to check that my 14 year old DD won’t be sharing accommodation and communal showers with a bunch of teen boys on her upcoming school trip. All because teachers either think I’m transphobic or agree with me but are too scared to speak up. I’d welcome you to try to convince her GP that what would most benefit her would be a referral for an autism assessment, not a referral to the GIDS clinic for puberty blockers, but the GP thinks I “really do need to validate my daughter as a son”. I’d welcome you to do all that without worry in the back of your head that you will be referred to Social Services which can and does happen.

Personally, I avoid making comparisons to Nazi Germany because there is always a Saskia ready to jump in. I prefer to just compare it to any totalitarian regime, particularly the former Soviet Bloc, but that’s just me.

does my opinion negate yours, or vice versa?

Neither. We are allowed to have conflicting opinions,positions, beliefs. Which is exactly what trans-ideology, and all authoritarian, absolutist ideologies, forbid.

Saskia I’m truly sorry about your family history and I’m not comparing feminists to victims of genocide. The column that I linked discusses collaborators and it is their behaviour that I wish to focus on.

The sad truth is that many holocaust victims were reported by former friends and neighbours and people in authority who either looked the other way, or actively assisted. It begs the question, what makes people collaborate, especially when deep down they know it’s wrong?

I personally believe that very few people, even amongst the most vocal activists, genuinely believe that men can become women. So how has the TWAW mantra become so insidious that it can’t be challenged?

Thanks for the link. Good article; on a side note I'd never heard of Dorothy Thompson. She sounds like a really interesting person and a good journalist.