Family in 2050 guardian article

[hoorayforharoldlloyd]

amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/dec/31/family-2050-artificial-wombs-robot-carers-single-fathers

Predictions for family changes by 2050 - blase about artificial wombs freeing up women rather than capitalism crushing women's ability to have children and work etc. Depressing stuff.

amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/dec/31/family-2050-artificial-wombs-robot-carers-single-fathers

Interesting article - thanks for sharing. I don't see it as entirely depressing - yes the artificial wombs are ethically dubious and I can't get on board with that.

On the other hand so much progress is being made to help infertile and same sex couples have families. The article is focusing on the nuclear family no longer being the norm which is a positive thing for so many.

My DC never would have been conceived a few years ago and our family unit (same sex parents) would never have been so freely accepted so I am personally very grateful for the progress being made and think the positives outweigh the negatives.

Artificial wombs sound better than surrogates.

I personally think one of the biggest changes will be a massive drop in the birth rate. More and more young people are choosing not to become parents.

Artificial wombs sound better than surrogates.

Yes agreed. Solutions where women and their bodies are not exploited are preferable.

more young people are choosing not to become parents

This is the case in the Far East. It is very noticeable in Japan and Korea and beginning in China.

Fair point on the development of the feasibility and acceptability of same sex families and support for infertile couples.

I feel disturbed by the way that an artifical womb would have the possibility to say well rich or poor women only get pregnant. If you choose to use your own body then your problem if it isn't compatible with work or childcare. Freezing eggs so we fit work rather than finding ways to make work fit us.

Why is it female. Bodies that need to be closed down or usurped? Would we be better citizens if science allowed us to be better secondary men?

Can't help but see the future as dystopian. We still can't help seeing progress as synonymous with technology. We find it impossible to work with nature, we can't help dominating it. I predict the return of full blown eugenics because children will be marketable, a future resource to be exploited. If people are willing to go through surgery to get the 'ideal' body why not create the 'ideal child'.
Personally I think Abba Eban was right 'History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives.'

Does anyone consider the effect that artificial wombs would have on the babies that come out of them? We already know that lack of human interaction and body contact has profound psychological effects on infants. How can we be sure that pre-natal attachment is not equally important if not more so?

DreadPirate thank you - to you probably obvious to make that leap, but I needed the nudge. Great point.

Artificial wombs sound better than surrogates

Yes agreed. Solutions where women and their bodies are not exploited are preferable

I'm against all forms of assisted conception. From the point of view of the child both seem equally objectionable- see DreadPirateLuna's post.

And both are turning children into commodities.

If men can find a way of getting babies without women, I can't imagine the future for women like anything other than extremely bleak. It's the one thing they really need us for.

Agree with pp that idea around artificial wombs uses a mechanical, vessel view around gestation. As for the anti abortion crew, the foetus exists in a sac, the human female body around it ignored. The impact of removing all of the complex interactions of growing inside a woman, hearing her heartbeat voice, sharing all sorts of physiological processes past providing nutrition, is not considered. The fact it is not considered, the vessel view, is inherently totally misogynist. The idea that a sac designed by men can easily replace the entire complex interactions involved when an actual woman grows a baby in get body.

If men can find a way of getting babies without women, I can't imagine the future for women like anything other than extremely bleak. It's the one thing they really need us for

I don't buy that nor the premise of that article.

Artificial wombs sounds very Brave New World to me - a book I did at school, and frankly, terrified me - for the lack of human emotion in the Brave New Worldians, not because of technophobia.

If men can find a way of getting babies without women, I can't imagine the future for women like anything other than extremely bleak. It's the one thing they really need us for

I agree this is an interesting point actually - if they don't us to bear their children, and they have, say, sex robots for sex - how will women fare in that future?

Aldous Huxley assumed almost complete sex equality - but I'm not sure.

Personally, my DH seems to like having a thinking, opinionated human female as his life partner - and wouldn't want a Stepford Wives robot. But how common is that in men? I'm beginning to wonder. How many men will still want that after a couple of generations of sex robots?

Personally, my DH seems to like having a thinking, opinionated human female as his life partner - and wouldn't want a Stepford Wives robot. But how common is that in men? I'm beginning to wonder. How many men will still want that after a couple of generations of sex robots?

Nope, not buying that scenario either. Sorry I mean not buying the majority of men just want a Stepford sex robot scenario. I'm sure your husband is lovely.

I can't see artificial wombs taking off in a big way. It's a dodgy enough process after a millennium of natural development and most women who choose to become mothers do so because they want to best a baby. Frankly, if we get to the point where you are pushed to use an artificial egg than to take time off work, I suspect a lot more females will be going on a fertility strike.

The sex robots however, probably will happen. I am currently speculating if it will decrease rape and DV or normalize it further.

'Aldous Huxley assumed almost complete sex equality - but I'm not sure.'

From what I remember, and it's been years since I read it, emotion was erased, men were the focus, and women were for sex, 'pneumatic' being a word I particularly remember!

'most women who choose to become mothers do so because they want to best a baby'

Around the world this is not true, lack of access to contraception, societal norms etc mean women are still in 'reproductive role'. In societies where there is access to contraception, and work and food etc, women choose less children, in some countries they are turning away from men and babies altogether (Japan, South Korea).

'Frankly, if we get to the point where you are pushed to use an artificial egg than to take time off work, I suspect a lot more females will be going on a fertility strike.'

Female babies are born with all their eggs I believe, unlike males who generate sperm as they go. If we're thinking the technology for artificial wombs is there, then no need for adult women to get eggs from.

'The sex robots however, probably will happen. I am currently speculating if it will decrease rape and DV or normalize it further.'

They are happening but fail to satisfy, as they don't react naturally (human). EG one has a setting for a woman who is 'reluctant', but doubt it gives the full experience of an actual woman. Child sex dolls seemed to have effect of normalising (sorry don't have link, read ages ago). Bottom line is if a man is abusive/ wants to dominate etc will a doll satisfy those urges?

emotion was erased, men were the focus, and women were for sex, 'pneumatic' being a word I particularly remember!

Yes you're right! The word "pneumatic" - I remember my nglish teacher trying to explain that one to us - and too many couplings with the same partner was frowned upon. Lots of no-strings sex, a typical male fantasy I suppose.

It was the emotionless human beings that really freaked me out though. And the "conditioning". - where they made the low-status babies hate flowers and books. Sometimes wish I could go on a soma holiday though

This is the case in the Far East. It is very noticeable in Japan and Korea and beginning in China

Lack of marriageable men, actually. Most women of a certain age I met living in East Asia wanted a family, but no suitable partners. Also, single motherhood is extremely stigmatised; I would guess most would end up having an abortion in those cases, esp in China where getting babies born out of wedlock registered is far from straightforward

Well sure, the net result being, women opting out.

I don't think men will stand for that in the long run, tbh, and how it gets 'corrected' is unlikely to be pretty.

The idea that men should sort their shit out so women want to be with them seems to be less popular ..

Unless, weirdly, men start listening to Jordan Peterson. But then we're back to conservative gender roles.

I've not heard his stuff but judging by things I've read he's v well regarded by 'incels' I think?

Like I say, if women opt out / they can get babies without is us, I don't think the result will be pretty for us in the end.

Won't be pretty that should be!