Scottish census body backs self-ID guidance for sex question

[stumbledin]

Not sure if this is actual news or a Guardian interpretation to suit their trans beliefs.

... A report from the National Records of Scotland (NRS), which conducts the census, proposes that individuals should be advised to answer according to how they self-identify, regardless of the details on their birth certificate or whether they have a gender recognition certificate.

The report refers to research that suggests three times as many trans and non-binary people would be willing to answer the sex question with self-identification guidance than with legal sex guidance. It concludes: “A binary sex question with self-identification guidance therefore supports participation for all people with the census and clarifies to data providers and data users the basis of the question.” ...

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/27/scottish-census-body-backs-self-id-guidance-for-sex-question

It's true that the Scottish census authority has recommended guidance for the sex question that instructs respondents to answer based on their self-declared gender identity.

However, it remains possible for MSPs to reject this recommendation.

(The two other UK census authorities - ONS and NISRA - that cover England, Wales and Northern Ireland have made the same recommendation. And it also remains possible for MPs to reject this recommendation.)

The census orders will be introduced into Parliament sometime in the next month or two. That's when the final version of the census questionnaire is signed off.

This is the draft guidance being considered across the UK:

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2019/12/10/draft-guidance-under-consideration-for-2021-census-sex-question-summary-of-proposals/

And this is the open letter signed by 80 eminent academics objecting to the guidance: www.parliament.scot/S5_European/General%20Documents/CTEEA_2019.12.18_Sullivan.pdf

It’s totally weird.

I thought the census collected data correctly not some ones feelings

that instructs respondents to answer based on their self-declared gender identity.

Are they going to explain what a gender identity is and how one would know how to answer the question?

Fack!

The outcome of this will be that they have no meaningful data on sex. Is that the intent?

What about those of us that only believe in biological sex and have no innate gender identity? I have already decided that I will not be able to answer the sex/identity question as it does not apply to me.

It’s totally weird. I thought the census collected data correctly not some ones feelings

Well yes, and especially odd when you consider the shifting nature of identity and the increasing numbers of detransitioners.

What about those of us that only believe in biological sex and have no innate gender identity? I have already decided that I will not be able to answer the sex/identity question as it does not apply to me

Exactly! What has happened here is that one set of people's refusal/inability to identify their sex has resulted in an enforcement of a meaningless concept on to everyone else. I would not be able to answer that question. I do not have a a gender identity.

In the future when genealogists are hunting down ancestors they will have no facts to go on. People will disappear. At the moment birth/marriage/death certs and census records are the basic tools to find people. It will all become meaningless.

It won’t ask you for gender identity. You will all be able to answer.

BUT others are being advised to lie when asked their sex.

It’s very deviously done, so that it is unnoticeable to the general population, who might well object if the truth was placed honestly in the open.

It will all become meaningless

In the weird world of TRA ideology this is most likely seen as a positive; the idea that somehow we are no longer defined by our biology - even as the whole of TRA ideology is formulated around biology. Without sex, TRA ideology is meaningless.

BUT others are being advised to lie when asked their sex

But we all could lie if we wanted ti be subversive...and I'm sure many will. TRAs want to be seen as special, unique people who have rejected stuff that all of the plebs conform to. Wrong!

"how many fingers, Winston?"

FFS.

This is fucking ridiculous. How can anyone calculate how many staff we need for any given service if we can't calculate how many of the population will need the service?

Fucking ridiculous. My 12 year old would understand this.

Is there anything more demonstrative of the narcissism involved in this movement than the unwillingness to put aside identity, ideology, feelings and just record accurate data of sex for just one night? NO ONE will know what you put down. None of your TRA buddies will know, you won’t betray “the cause”, it won’t be tweeted, all that will happen is there will be accurate sex demographics in the future. If you want to have your gender identity recorded as well, campaign for that, campaign for recognition of such and I would totally get behind that, but don’t lie answering a simple question just to make your point, it’s just so fucking childish.

It won’t ask you for gender identity. You will all be able to answer.

So it asks about gender identity and sex?

If they understand sex to mean gender identity I can't answer.

If they aren't able to define what sex means, why are they asking the question?

I'm warming up to the idea of a dirty protest.

This is changing because the vocal NB people ca't cope with answering with the truth - that they have a sex? (I understand that is very upsetting to them, but, I genuinely can't see why dysphoria triggered by having a sex is not a mental health condition)

Well, I have a sex. I don't consider myself to have a gender. Am not answering any question which suggests I do.

If they want data, they can have data. Meaningless, stupid, messed up and worthless data - and oodles of it.

Maybe then they'll be brave enough to stick with facts.

So they won't have info to plan maternity services provision, estimate school places etc

If they don't know how many women of childbearing age there are

There's probably other stuff.

I'm a man for this census then. I certainly don't identify with the stereotypes associated with femininity.

'This is changing because the vocal NB people ca't cope with answering with the truth - that they have a sex? (I understand that is very upsetting to them, but, I genuinely can't see why dysphoria triggered by having a sex is not a mental health condition)'

It won't help them as the proposal is the question is still 'binary'.

I'd have thought it's important to know sex, and how many people have a trans id. Two questions.

No idea why that's an issue.

Just to clarify: in England, Wales and Scotland there will be a new, additional, voluntary question on gender identity. So every UK census form will have the usual sex question but with guidance that instructs respondents to answer based on their self-declared gender identity AND a separate question on gender identity in each jurisdiction bar Northern Ireland.

The link in our first reply shows you what the guidance looks like for each census authority.

What we, and the 80 academics, have pointed out is that the loss of quality data on sex is likely to be more acute amongst sub populations. At country-level, the numbers may not skew the data a huge amount (although equally the UK Govt GRA consultation cited estimates of the trans population that could be as high as 0.5m) but they may well be more stark amongst, say, young women, and maybe higher still if you look closely at particular geographic areas.

Given what we know about the surge in young girls identifying as boys, who knows how many young girls aged 12-18 years old might not appear in the 'female' category because the 'male' box has been ticked.

Example: the census provides baseline data against which rates of disease and social phenomena are measured. So if a small but nonetheless significant number of young women disappear from that dataset, what will that do when you try to calculate, say, the rate of cervical cancer? And from census data flows resource allocation/public spending decisions.

Sorry just to clarify is the proposal that it asks sex and, separately, gender identity?

Yes, a sex question as there has been since 1801, although with guidance asking people to respond based on their gender identity. This is a compulsory question.

And another (new, separate, voluntary) question on gender identity.

So they are not collecting data correctly

🤷‍♀️ Jeez.

Dear Non-Binary People,

You have a sex. It’s either male or female. You’re not intersex. You know what your sex is. Don’t pretend you don’t. Your gender is irrelevant. It’s a box to tick. On one night. Once in a blue moon. It’s important, more important than the momentary upset you may feel for all of a minute by ticking a box that is an accurate scientific description of you. Please, just answer the fucking question, FFS.

Yours sincerely etc, etc.

It's been discussed in the Scots parliament where all the issues were laid clear, but the heavy lobbying behind the scenes goes on and it's clear they're going to just do it anyway.

Whatever. Inform the general public, let them know that a huge amount of tax payer money is being spent on an enormous and expensive outlay of time and effort to create - statistics that will be worthless and purposeless and will create all kinds of problems. Because really, under those circumstances why bother with the census? Once you've told the populace they can make it up if they want to what is the point?

Rather like female single sex facilities: the primary purpose of having the item in question and the needs of the massive majority of users really should be what is considered. If the 'inclusion' aspect just destroys its purpose and usefulness to anyone, then it wasn't inclusion at all.