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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminist orgs and TW

10 replies

emerencemaybehopeful · 27/12/2019 02:40

Without going into too much detail for various reasons

  • family heavily involved in founding a feminist institute in specific community
  • said institute has been approached by prominent/celebrated stunning and brave community member.
  • I'm a few steps removed and the people running day to day are welcoming the positive publicity this will bring
  • I want to cry.
OP posts:
Gingerkittykat · 27/12/2019 06:04

It might bring positive publicity and woke points from some but will piss off a lot of other people.

Have you told the members of the organisation how you feel on this issue?

emerencemaybehopeful · 27/12/2019 06:53

Complicated due to physical location and the health of one of the key players.

My feelings on this issue are known but I think some are inclined to be particularly dismissive as 'we are about bigger problems'.

Except that I can't understand how you can help women/be about women if you can't define what a woman is.

OP posts:
Datun · 27/12/2019 07:42

Except that I can't understand how you can help women/be about women if you can't define what a woman is.

Try asking them this question.

The challenge of answering it might make them think twice.

ChattyLion · 27/12/2019 09:00

Sympathies, this approach must have a horrible feeling of inevitability around it. Women’s spaces and services are consistently under attack.

But you are in a good position to speak to others being so closely connected with it. And the good thing is at least you now know about it before anyone’s said yes.

Maybe you could start with saying that while you accept that clearly not everyone believes that it’s impossible for human beings to change sex, that this is a question that challenges the charity’s purpose at its heart and which deserves very serious consideration with close service user and staff involvement. Not just a trustee decision in isolation.

You have very serious concerns that your charity will risk deterring many service users with the ‘bigger problems’ from accessing its services, because many women don’t want to be in the proximity of men, however those men identify and however nice they are. This view will include the most vulnerable women and women with no other alternative options for finding help than your charity, but could include any woman. There are lots of reasons which could happen to any woman, which might make them feel this way. Also you know that those running the charity believe that women should be entitled to access its service with privacy, safety and dignity, so why should this be jeopardised in order to admit men?

Secondly do your relatives or those running the charity know that the Stonewall umbrella includes everyone? They will be saying the charity will support everyone if they let in men. There can be no more filter based on keeping the charity single-sex. So this means by making the services unisex you can’t reduce the risk of sexual attack and harassment pre-emptively any more. They will be raising the likelihood of these things happening to women because all men will have to be admitted, however the men identify.

There’s also a very strong argument from fairness: No charity has infinite resources, and presumably this one fundraises publicly, including substantially from your own family, on the basis of being set up specifically to benefit women? Why should women’s services exhaust finite women’s resources, then, in order to support men?

If the brave stunner person is so likely to attract a positive response then they are completely free to set up their own separate charity based on their own needs and experiences, to benefit their own community (Hmm exactly as has been done here with your charity, to benefit women only).

Your charity also needs to consider whether- however much it would like to help- in its experience of working with women, if it has really gathered the relevant expertise to deal with this person’s needs and experiences? Doesn’t your charity normally refer people with specific needs to the specific charity for that type of need or section of the community? Why is this specific case any different?

Your charity was set up for women who face completely different challenges and disadvantages to men due to female biology, and because of the the weaponisation of gender against them based on their sex due to sexism/patriarchal thinking.

Then.. if your relative is too ill or the whole thing too far away to have a proper conversation about this on an informal level then could you look at the founding legal documents of the charity and raise some technical questions?

If the charity’s set up to benefit women then it will say so clearly somewhere.

You don’t say where you are, but in most places where charities are regulated, the charity can’t just change its own remit unless (eg in England) it’s ‘in the best interest of the charity’ and the trustees need to agree to such a change. More here:

www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-make-changes-to-your-charitys-governing-document

Given that already your charity can be helping transgender or non binary or detransitioned service users who were born female.... does your ill relative and the far- away trustees want to help transgender people including those born male AND all men however they identify so much that they will either potentially have to wind up this existing charity with all the disruption and expense of that and then to establish a new charity from scratch (so as to allow all men to be service users) with all the time and expense and need for new expertise that doing that would entail?

Alternatively, do they want to admit men anyway under the current legal set up for women and and so risk deterring actual and future women service users and potentially not meeting the needs of the transwoman individual who has approached them?

If they do wish to do that, when are they planning to undertake a possibly very expensive review of their insurance policies and of the employment terms of the charity staff?

How do they plan to mitigate for the loss of staff expertise if staff and volunteers resign over this? What about the loss of future attraction of good quality staff and volunteers who want to work in women’s services?

And presumably the charity are resourced to work transparently around this so they will be undertaking a full consultation of service users and the public before they make such a change, and will publish the results all of which will take several months?

And are they resourced during all this on social media and in their press office and leadership team and within the Trustees to respond to the public critique and debate that this proposal to admit male-born people will attract?
Plus to rectify the loss of the charity’s reputation for good governance if it went ahead and made such a change against its own governing documents?

How would it deal with other donors pulling out over this fundamental change of policy?

Is it financially prepared and confident enough in its own reputation to have to defend legal cases that it might attract around making a change of this kind, as will soon be happening with the Girl Guides UK?

Sorry for the massive post, I’m sure we could all add even more things that they would need to think about though..
Good luck with it Flowers

MedusasButterDish · 27/12/2019 18:38

Earlier posts made excellent points about the costs of changing terms so cardinally. We generally see the hounding of organisations for not giving in to this pressure (even when the Equality Act, for example, gives them the right to hold firm). However, the pasting Jolyon Maugham has had since yesterday has been interesting. I think it's been a combination of pissed-off Brexiteers and pissed-off gender critical people, and although it hasn't approached the viciousness of recent attacks by TRAs on JK Rowling, for example, it should serve as a shot across the bows. The gender-critical "side" should not be considered the "easier" side to piss off.

(My user name reflects my being pissed off with Upfield (makers of Flora) for placating people who demanded Upfield call Mumsnetters names for asking questions )

BickerinBrattle · 27/12/2019 20:10

Audrey Ludwig, a discrimination legal specialist on Twitter, makes the point that organisations which are set for women and then allow entry to some males without a GRC but not all males without a GRC open themselves up to accusations of indirect discrimination from women and accusations of direct discrimination from the males they exclude.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 27/12/2019 20:58

Does it have charity status because if the charity is meant to be for women then that might be a good get out clause for you to point out.

ahumanfemale · 27/12/2019 21:29

Could the charity be pointed towards LGB Alliance's website for more information on how stunning and brave may actually be discriminating against the LGB community??

It's hard not knowing what it does, so just throwing that in the mix.

Would cause me sleepless nights though.

stumbledin · 27/12/2019 21:47

This must be really tough to try and resolve, not just because of the charity itself but it being family.

You say it is "feminist" but are its services actually women only (eg Fawcett is "feminist" but not women only)?

You used the word institute so it maybe there aren't direct services so the excemption under the EA wont (I think) be relevant.

If there are service users, surely one of the first steps would be to ask the users how they feel, assuming the users are all women. Even if the charity is a family affair, it is for the benefit of the users.

I agree with what others have said that they need to think of the impact on the reputation of the charity given that the issue is so divisive.

I think getting together some information say from WPUK, Fair Play for Women etc., to give background on why women's services are based on and about the lived experience from being born female.

And as others have said, that they might lose credibility with their users if it is seen to have moved from feminism into queer politics.

Do they want to do that?

Isn't there a board of trustees etc., who should be discussing this as it seems it would be a major shift in the public perception of the charity.

(Appreciate I may have misinterpreted your message)

emerencemaybehopeful · 28/12/2019 01:05

Thanks all

It's not based in the UK though some activity does occur there. It's legally incorporated in its home country, which I won't identify. I'm in a different country again.

The approach occurred at an event in the UK.

There are no direct service users exactly. However by my reading of the EA it would be legitimate to exclude this individual if it were uk based.

Leadership is across three continents.

I agree with the person who pointed out that recent activity on social media/press shows that it might be just as risky for an org/business to piss off the GC masses as it is to upset the TRAs. My problem is partly that this niche community tends to be about 10 years behind on trends like this.

The inclusion of T in the alphabet sandwich is masterful, isn't it? It's really tricky to maintain a social justice or left wing reputation in a community in which accepting L and G is a marker of position, and then draw that line in the sand.

I'm going to need to work out who to start the conversation with, because I don't think I'll sleep properly if I don't at least ensure that everyone involved has considered all the implications.

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