Feminists and fathers

[thatdamnwoman]

I have two friends who are struggling to find a comfortable way of accommodating their elderly widowed fathers in their lives. Both of the fathers were the remote, old-fashioned patriarchal kind – not horrible men, just emotionally absent from their lives. It was their mothers who shouldered the burden of domestic, familial and social responsibility and whom the daughters felt close to. Now the mothers have died the fathers are looking to the daughters to take over and both daughters are struggling with the expectation of neighbours, family and social services that they will be happy to do so.

My father died when I was quite young so this is an issue I don't have to face. Hearing my friends talk about their situations has made me wonder whether this is a familiar struggle for other feminists. One of my friends said something along the lines of 'The world seems to think that if your father wasn't abusive or didn't leave your mum then he was a good father, but being a good father involves more than being physically present on a day to day basis.'

Is this something that others are facing? How do you square your feminism with your familial duties/ expectations?

FIL wasn’t engaged in the family when his kids were young. MIL did everything, I mean everything. But FIL did work hard and provide money. And that was the deal they made in their marriage. Their dc owe something to both parents. Not everything, of course.

IME there's an expectation that you will look after both parents, not just fathers. My DF has recently died, I did spend time looking after him, but although I didn't have a great relationship with him, he needed care because of physical disability and would have been perfectly capable of looking after himself otherwise, he did a lot of the cooking anyway when I was younger. I guess it's a different issue if you're left with a parent who has to learn all the tasks that were previously done for them.

I'm now caring for my mum. I think that there is a greater expectation that daughters will pick up care rather than sons from people inside and outside the family. My brother also seems to find it easier to set boundaries (which may be because he lives further away) whereas I have to pick up things whether it's convenient or not.

I do feel resentful, my own plans are constantly abandoned due to being a lone parent and a carer, I was just thinking earlier I want something for myself, and I'm worried that my friends are getting fed up of me cancelling on them, but I can't just walk away from making my parents last weeks / months / years as comfortable as possible.

I think the women who've been talking about it with me feel – well, it's difficult to paraphrase some lengthy conversations but I think they both feel that their fathers took their mothers very much for granted while they were alive and didn't respect all the wifework they did. As feminists they are indignant about that and want to support their fathers on different terms, terms that don't assume that daughters are automatically happy and available to care. One of them has a couple of brothers, so involving the brothers is an obvious move, but in the other family both offspring are female.

I don't know if its that worthwhile to go too deep into questioning how your parents arranged their marriage. Not usually anyway, and not the stuff that was mainly between them. Maybe they were happy with those roles, maybe they both were pushed in by social expectations, probably it was a combination of many things. But it's done now.

I'd go forward on the basis of the current situation, and what they see as the proper role of kids to their parents in their declining years. Elderly mothers need help too when a spouse dies, it's not just a father thing. I'd not refuse to help my mum with all the "manly" jobs my step-father did or her, because I felt she was now leaning on me for those things. On the other hand there is nothing wrong with helping the person to become more competent if they are still able to learn. I've known some elderly people who really enjoyed expanding their horizons in that way, even if they needed some help to get started.

Mine is like that- not abusive but distant/ emotionally detached.

I don’t have much of any relationship with him and neither of us expect me to do any wifework/ caring now he’s old.

I got no support from him as an adult so I don’t feel I owe him anything.

My DF had quite a traumatic upbringing that meant he struggled with emotional regulation and could be very controlling, which meant I had a difficult relationship with him and my mental health suffered. My relationship with my mum wasn't good either though. My DF did do a lot for all of us, it's just that some of it was very misguided! I didn't really have much of a relationship with him as an adult, but in the weeks leading up to the end of his life we did bond as I was his main carer, more out of necessity than choice, but in hindsight it was a very healing experience. I never would have thought things would turn out like that and I would actually want to be spending time with him. One of the things I learned I think was that things often don't turn out as you've anticipated them.

I am still furious though that social care was hopeless and everything was dumped on me meaning I had to take time out of work and lost money and future business. Maybe they would have taken my brother more seriously, who knows?

That's touching, EverardDigby. I could say the same about my months nursing my mum at home before she died. Terrible but healing.

In both the cases I'm aware of the fathers may go on for many more years. They are anticipating that their daughters will take over much of the wifework their wives used to do. One of them has expected his daughter to purchase, write and send Christmas cards on his behalf, as his wife did – he didn't know where the address books were, this was something that women did, not men. Both women are trying to teach their fathers to be more self-sufficient and trying to hold boundaries but it's difficult. I guess we can only hope that they grow closer to their fathers in the process.

I realise these are everyday issues but I don't often see them expressed from a feminist viewpoint. Let's hope that future generations of women who've grown up with more involved fathers won't have to face the dilemma of being expected to care for a parent they've never felt close to.

When the time comes, I won’t help my father.
He was a horrible father, toxic, agressive and he messed up my self esteem probably for life.
I have a lot of trouble trusting men and my relationships with them in the past were often toxic or I could not trust them.

I know that society expects me to take care of elderly parents but society never stepped in to save me from a traumatizing childhood.

This is something that I worry about for the future as my dad can't cook or do lots of basic tasks and my mum looks after him - although there is nothing wrong with him and she complains about doing it.

I'm not seeing anyone saying "Elderly parents are always women's responsibility, and it's not fair. Sons have an equal duty, as much as daughters." Maybe more so when it's a father who needs care.

Hmm, in my family it was my mother who was emotionally distant one. In fact she saw herself as a brilliant feminist - certainly she had an excellent high flying career and never did any "wife-work" - we had nannies from 1 week old, cleaners, a housekeeper, as she refused to do childcare or housework and so did my father. In fact noone seemed to bother about us children in any sort of caring capacity once we were too old for nannies (aged 4).
Now she is elderly and widowed she expects me to care emotionally but not physically thank goodness. However I find it hard to bring much emotion to the relationship to be honest. Duty, yes, but that's it. I think is my brother was still alive he would be expected to do less, but then he never felt the pressure of duty and could shrug it off more easily than me. Maybe that's due to societal socialisation.
Ethically I think I would be in the wrong to not visit my mother now she is old and infirm despite that playing into the sex stereotype of woman-carer.

I'm so lucky. DF brought me up to be a feminist. From my earliest childhood he told me I could do anything. He always had such faith in me (though this may be partly because we're very alike ). He's always preferred women, one of the reasons he became a GP obstetrician - which you could do back in the day. He was way before his time, and a very attentive DF to all three of us.

It was my DM who tried to limit me. She wanted me to be pretty and demure. One of her frequent sayings was "Be good, sweet maid, and let who will be clever". Used to give me the rage. However she's mellowed over the year and no longer takes this position.

They're both over 90 now and are totally independent with the help of an excellent cleaner and a gardener. My DPs are among my favourite people in the world. We so much enjoy each other's company.

We've discussed future plans. If DF goes first I'm going to move in with DM while she decides what to do next. If she goes first DF says I'd drive him stark staring in a fortnight, so he's picked out a good old people's home and will go there.

Having a great relationship with my DF helped me pick a good DH, and my DSD chose a good DH because of her own lovely DF. It runs down the generations.

My father just died this week, so this is a bit raw right now.

He was 90 and widowed and for the last few years I've done his shopping, taken him to the warfarin clinic, the chiropodist, various other hospital and dr appointments, picked up his prescriptions and generally looked after him because he had heart failure, macular degeneration, diabetes and kidney disease.

People have said to me - oh, you're so good to your dad - but to me it wasn't about being good. However it would have been bad if I hadn't. ( that's how it felt for me, it feels different for others I know)

I'd have done the same had it been my mum.

Which begs the question - is it also a feminist issue to look after an elderly mum - or is it just elderly fathers who pose a feminist problem? Why is it different to look after a dad than a mum?

I don't think caring for elderly parents should be a feminist issue. I think it's an ethical or morality issue. If male relatives don't step up where they should (taking into account past abuse etc), then that is their moral failing. I'm not sure I would want to live in a society where adult children do not make sure that their elderly parents needs are taken care of in some way - even if it is just ensuring that the government has fulfilled it's social care responsibilities.

I think the OP is partly asking about whether daughters should take over sexist tasks, like writing Xmas cards, because their parents had such traditional roles?

Yes, I do see that, but tbh who writes the christmas cards seems like such a little thing amongst all the other big worries when caring for a greiving parent and supporting them to rebuild their life.

And yes, latterly I helped my dad with his christmas cards because he couldn't see to write them. I also showed him how to work the cashline twenty years ago because he'd never done it before ( my mother had all the bank cards) and use the washing machine too.

So I get the theoretical feminist question about taking on a parent's wife-work but at 70/80/90 years old I think its more about supporting your paren,t male or female, with the relevant practicalities of their daily living whether it's writing christmas cards or putting the bins out.

Driving can be a big issue for lots of older women whose husbands have not been keen for them to drive, particularly long trips, so women lose their confidence. My XP hated me driving him (though I think I am a better driver) and I regularly had to argue with him and he would sulk (and it was my bloody car in the first place!) - unless he wanted to drink.... I guess there are probably DIY-type things that many women feel less confident about too, but perhaps it's more respectable to pay for those things than for "wifework".

It's a feminist issue if women are expected to care for older parents, but their brothers not.
But I think the sex of the parent doesn't matter much.
DH's father died this year and there is so much his mother is having to learn how to do - DH and his sister are both helping out.
It's not even "men jobs" and "women jobs" - although he always cut the lawns and hedges, etc. but she didn't even know how to set the central heating. And I'm sure had she died first there'd be things he hadn't done, like christmas cards and ironing - although he did most of the cooking.

I'm glad to hear that so many here have had good relationships with their fathers. If only we could all say that. My father was always a mystery. Time and life experience have enabled me to understand what made him the way he was, and also appreciate how patriarchy had damaged him.

I suppose it seems a feminist issue because feminists centre women and female experience and I and the other two women who've been mulling this over felt a stronger connection with our mothers than our fathers. And both my friends feel that they are being expected to step into their mothers' shoes when for years they have watched their fathers expecting their wives to service them and resenting the fathers for it.

As with all relationships, it's complicated and there's no simple solution.

There was a question about why it's a feminist issue to take care of elderly dads, but not mums, or also mums.

Feminist issue 1: the expectation that daughters will provide care. I mean, if they ask nicely and are appreciative, that's one thing. But, "hey, you're servant caste. Hop to it." That would make me see red.

Feminist issue 2: If the father is physically able to cook, clean, garden, write xmas cards, whatever, but sloughs off the "women's work" on a daughter, that's just plain rude.

What can anyone do about it? I have no idea. You're dealing with a vulnerable person, if they were halfway decent you have some obligation to them, and when they need you it feels crappy to start teaching them about justice issues. I don't know what you can do. If it was me and I had the considerable financial wherewithal, I'd book them into an assisted living facility and visit once a week. The emotional distance thing can go both ways :P But that's not a practical solution for most of us.

Is this something that others are facing? How do you square your feminism with your familial duties/ expectations?

My father was a typical "absent father" a good provider, but also had serial affairs and disconnected from the family in many ways. He's chosen to live with a woman younger than his youngest child and she can jolly well care for him in his late 80s as far as I"m concerned. He reaps what he sows. He was always looking away from his family so I think his family is OK to keep an eye on him from a distance, but no more. That's what we do.

I have been impressed by how my 90+ dad has taken on the shopping since my mum started finding it difficult due to her mobility problems.

At first she wrote the list and he just fulfilled it. But over the months he started taking an interest and now he brings home stuff he thinks they'll both enjoy. Many of these items have become staples.

Now food shopping is more of a shared task. I don't think many men of his generation would be happy to learn new skills like that. I can't see him demanding wifework from me should DM go first.