Former Queen's chaplain converts to RC over PC and trans issues

[packingsoapandwater]

ashenden.org/2019/12/21/the-failure-of-the-c-of-e-to-stand-up-topolitical-correctness-cultural-marxism-my-conversion-to-catholicism-gavin-ashenden-mail-on-sunday/

Key quotes: "Because, sadly, I have come to the conclusion that in some important respects Britain is startingto resemble Soviet-era EasternEurope. Freedom of speech is slowlybeing eroded; those who refuse to be ‘politically correct’ risk accusations of thought crime and Christians are being unfairly persecuted."

"Nowhere is this starker today than in the highly-charged debate over transgender rights, particularly regarding children and teenagers."

This is snowballing.

Copernicus and Galileo might have been interested to hear that the Church has spent 2000 years defending science. But I agree with you, it’s snowballing.

It is snowballing, but it seems to the advantage of the right wing.

How did we end up with this identity politics infection. Arghggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Related article in the DM today:

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7823365/Dominic-Sandbrook-Farewell-hate-mobs-joyless-intolerance.html

Some of us have been warning that this stuff is going to prompt a right wing backlash for a long time.

The Galileo affair is pretty widely misrepresented. In a way it wasn't dissimilar to what we see now, Galileo's problem was he didn't convince his peers in the sciences and but presented his theory to his students as correct prematurely. I wouldn't particularly hold that element against the Catholic Church.

I imagine for this fellow this is in a way the straw that broke the camels back. The Church of England has really laid aside any pretence of undertaking serious theological inquiry, and accepting every social fad unquestioningly is part of that. But from a positive perspective they've also not contributed much in any deep way to other questions, both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have written really substantially on things like economics, capitalism, and the environment within the last 100 years and are carrying on doing so. The CofE finds marching in Pride parades and putting up flags more their level.

(I realise that all sounds rather mean, but it's very much a matter of being disappointed in my own spiritual tradition.)

No need to go back to Copernicus and Gallileo. The Index Librorum Prohibitorum was only abolished in 1966, and even after that there were bans on the likes of Hans Kung.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authors_and_works_on_the_Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum

I don't always see eye to eye with you Goosefoot, but I see a lot to agree with in your assessment there.

Gallileo's problem was that he was a smartarse. His Dialogue proposed that the Ptolemaic view was that of a fool.

The mealy-mouthed 'pardon' for him in 1992 was shamless in its revisionism and self-justification.

Earlier thread here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3775014-Now-The-Queens-former-chaplin-speaks-out-including-concern-over-schools-guidance

With a good post by DianeBrewster.

PUUULLL!!!

That’s a good article in the DM although funny to see Jon Ronson being prayed in aid here - since his book about shaming was published he’s revealed himself to be one who berates women for Wrongthink. Ditto Peter Tatchell - no platformed and supports no platforming so 🤷🏼‍♀️

Gavin Ashenden’s an idiot whose main problem is that he didn’t rise as high in the CofE as he thought he should. He used to be quite moderate but in recent years has become virulently conservative and homophobic. When he didn’t get the attention he wanted in the CofE proper he left to join some continuing Anglican sect in which he got himself made a ‘bishop’, but presumably he realised that nobody cared so he’s made this latest move. He might well find, as contrary Anglicans who think the grass is greener on the other side tend to, that in the Roman church there’s far less latitude to speak out and get attention. I have no doubt he’ll be off somewhere else in a couple of years if not sooner.

‘Chaplain to the Queen’ isn’t as impressive as it sounds. There are about 30 of them, working in normal clergy jobs across the country, and they tend to be clergy towards the end of their careers who’ve had quite a distinguished career in parish ministry or similar, but who aren’t going to rise any higher. They get nominated by their bishop. I think they get the occasional invitation (once a year or less, I think) to preach at St George’s Chapel, Windsor, and they get to wear a red cassock instead of the normal black, and that’s it. The Queen has a domestic chaplain, and that is an impressive position to hold. Ashenden loves playing off the confusion of the title of ‘Chaplain to the Queen’ to make himself sound a lot more impressive than that in fact is to anyone who actually knows what it means.

I’d also say that while he did make a lot of noise about the vicar who resigned as a governor over the treatment of a child in a school who wanted to transition, the noise was unhelpful. Both he and the vicar concerned were really using the controversy to try to get at the bishop, Stephen Cottrell (now named as next Archbishop of York) because they claim he said he did not believe in biblical teachings. It’s been shown that the vicar’s account of his interactions with the bishop were made up and that he lied (for instance, he said he had a meeting with the bishop which never happened). Bishop Stephen has since issued a moderate statement in which he sits on the fence over trans issues.

I know it’s tempting to jump on every bandwagon where someone appears to support freedom of speech in the context of trans issues, but I really don’t think this particular one is helpful. Not just because of the extremist Christianity involved, but because both of the main ‘heroes’ in it - the vicar and Gavin Ashenden - have serious form for lying, exaggerating and self-promotion.

Sandbrook's article in the Mail is quite good but also lazy - as Binterested says, he's missed the fact that both Ronson and Tatchell are hardline TRAs. He could have chosen better examples. He also talks about Germaine Greer being no-platformed for her views, but that was years ago. There are many more recent examples of feminists being non-platformed at universities, including Rachel Ara, just the other week at Oxford Brookes.

Still, I do think that Rowling's tweet has helped this break through to the mainstream a bit more.

There's some odd interpretations of the Galileo affair going on here. Galileo was ordered directly by the pope to: "... abandon completely ... the opinion that the sun stands still at the center of the world and the Earth moves, and henceforth not to hold, teach, or defend it in any way whatever, either orally or in writing." (from Galileo, J L Helibron)

If that isn't telling someone to ignore truth I don't know what is - you might as well say that a man is a woman :)

If you look at other articles on his website, it's clear that he's been writing for years about the illegitimacy of women priests, the evil of equality of husband and wife in marriage, and how awful feminism as it leads to gay marriage, transgenderism and paedophilia.

And banging on about 'Cultural Marxism' and the Frankfurt school is a sure sign of anti-semitism.

If he sincerely believes that priestesses are a strike against God, with the advent of women bishops in the CofE, he's got no choice but to turn RC or Orthodox.

Tbh, I think he's in for a bit of a rude awakening if he thinks the Catholic church is a solid bastion of everyone agreeing with traditional mores as Christians have understood them. The CofE might be an openly wishy washy fudge sort of institution, but there are just as many divisions and factions within Catholicism, it's just not the English state church, so it only registers in Catholic publications and webspheres not the mainstream UK press.

Well, I don't agree that Christians are being persecuted in the UK for starters.

Catholicism - or rather, a particular parish - was a driving force in an ex-acquaintance transing her lesbian dd. There was so much gnashing of teeth in the family when the dd come out as lesbian, much counselling by the parish priest as to how dd didn't have to act on her disordered feelings - and strangely, when the dd transed into a transboy, quiet. All objections went away. Because he wasn't gay anymore! A win for our Lord Jesus Christ and Saviour.

However, Catholicism itself doesn't believe in 'born in the wrong body' mutable sex stuff. It's the homophobia (stronger in some parts of the Church than others) which is causing the promotion of trans.

(Acquaintance is ex since I said 'oh, do you think your dd could be dealing with a lot of homophobia ? And she cut me dead for suggesting her child was gay. Even though child had come out as lesbian. And was a female exclusively attracted to other females. It was a startling example to me of the role homophobia plays in people's transition...sorry, tangent.)

Yes, Janes, important distinction.

And, I believe that the other extreme end of the church, which ostensibly accepts and honours homosexual orientation, is honestly no different, it's just in it's rush to mark itself as different to the traditionalists, it's refused to examine the woke doctrines.

Well, I don't agree that Christians are being persecuted in the UK for starters.

A friend is a member of the Christian Union at a household name big company. He told me recently the group is allowed to meet on company premises as long as they do it in secret?!?

If that isn't telling someone to ignore truth I don't know what is - you might as well say that a man is a woman

But this was after he had got himself into trouble. Previous to that it had been made clear that if his ideas were accepted by other scientists they would also be accepted by the Church, and he was allowed to teach his ideas as a theory. But while in hindsight it seems to us obvious that it was true, at the time it was not obvious, there were significant objections other scientists had o what he proposed, and he wasn't at that point able to provide solutions - his calculations didn't work properly either.

Many scientists were at work during the early modern period or the earlier medieval period without any problems like Galileo had, many of them were sponsored by the Church.

One guy doesn't really show us they were institutionally anti-science.