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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Jolyon Maugham and Maya - time for the Bar Council to step up.

39 replies

Devereux1 · 23/12/2019 10:04

Following JM's tweet:
"Deliberate misgendering of transmen and women will contribute to those deaths and self-harm. that is a very real wrong done by those who adopt extreme positions, including Maya."

Maya declared something absolutely astonishing:

"Fun fact: back in May when i was nervously preparing my crowdfunder launch I asked him for advice, as someone with experience of this.

He happily gave it and commented on my draft text.

You'd think extremist, dangerous views would be the kind of thing people notice easily".

He happily gave it and commented on my draft text. WTH? And now he is making such comments about someone who consulted him?

How can the Bar Council allow such a massive breach of ethics to pass?

OP posts:
ACouchOfOnesOwn · 23/12/2019 10:13

She may not have been a client so I'm not sure if this would count as a massive breach of ethics. iirc ad hoc, unpaid advice without a contract or terms of engagement, isn't always treated the same as advice given to a client and isn't covered by the same privilege/restrictions.

Unless you were meaning he seems to be threatening/encouraging suicide, publicly naming someone as instigating it and that is ethically dubious?

Considering how vocal JM has been in his support of the TRAs, I'm surprised Maya asked for his advice or that he gave it.

AnotherLass · 23/12/2019 10:15

Yeah Jolyon changed his tune.

He has said that the issue concerns someone close to him. We've speculated before about Clair Quentin, who is a friend of his. But it could be that a family member has recently transitioned & went really TRA, and the emotional pressure has now got to him.

I don't think that Maya consulted him professionally. Sounds like she just asked him as a friend/ acquaintance. I don't see how Maya can do anything about it - a judge has just ruled that Maya's views are not worthy of respect.

RoyalCorgi · 23/12/2019 10:17

I don't know enough to comment on whether this is a breach of ethics, but this statement:

"Deliberate misgendering of transmen and women will contribute to those deaths and self-harm. that is a very real wrong done by those who adopt extreme positions, including Maya."

is just astonishing. Can he really believe that?

And if he does really, genuinely believe that misgendering causes people to kill themselves, what does he think might be the impact on a woman of being called a witch, or a cunt, or having violent threats of murder and sexual assault made against her? Or are women as a class assumed to be so mentally robust that it doesn't affect them?

Forgotthebins · 23/12/2019 12:25

RoyalCorgi very good point. People like Jolyon Maugham and Adam Wagner have zero compassion for the woman who actually lost her job, and all the compassion for some unnamed people with a very fragile sense of self, so fragile that argument by a stranger on the internet about a proposed change in the law can apparently spell the end for them. I have a bit of compassion for the last group, but given that they are able to force Maya out of her job, it's pretty obvious which side is actually marginalised and having their rights jumped on.

merrymouse · 23/12/2019 13:00

I really worry about everything he has said about Brexit if he can't understand why it's sometime necessary to accurately observe sex.

Original poster
Devereux1 · 23/12/2019 13:14

JM's position has seemed untenable to me for a while, but surely this takes him over the edge where the Bar Council, and anyone with a brain cell, are concerned.

Throughout this past year or so, his behaviour has worsened. If I was to park the actual difference in opinion we hold, surely even objectively his behaviour brings his profession into disrepute?

My honest, highly generalised view of QCs and their profession at the bar has, I must admit, plummeted because of JM. I know several barristers and even a couple of QCs, so I know how there are some incredible people who are in the profession. But like any profession when there is a bad egg, they leave a smell and I have to wonder about the credibility of the Bar Council to continue to ignore his actions.

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Binterested · 23/12/2019 13:48

I think he’s just not all that bright. He’s clever enough to be a lawyer and self publicist enough to have got to the top of the pile. That’s it.

I’m frequently impressed by the calibre of argumentation on this board - from women who have put together these thoughts and approaches in their spare time and not as a job they’ve been trained and paid to do. He is outclassed in logic, coherence and ability to see both the detail and the big picture by many on here.

Tootsweets23 · 23/12/2019 14:19

JM has been behaving like a total shit for quite a while now. His hounding of female journalists when he doesn't like their reporting is awful.

IrenetheQuaint · 23/12/2019 14:26

Jo Maugham's attitude to trans issues is thoroughly depressing, but I don't see what the Bar Council's role would be here? Like all barristers JM is self-employed and I'm not aware of him taking on work in relation to trans matters (and even then he'd have to commit some type of professional negligence for the Bar Council to be interested). He's just a twat on Twitter.

Procrastinator2 · 23/12/2019 15:15

If barristers accuse someone of causing suicides without foundation, isn't that bringing the profession into dispute?

ArranUpsideDown · 23/12/2019 15:44

(and even then he'd have to commit some type of professional negligence for the Bar Council to be interested)

Yes - isn't there some very unfortunate/odd case around this point that tangentially involves Sarah Phillimore? (Found it.)

Barbara Hewson, a human rights lawyer, was suspended for two years by a tribunal which found she had used “obscene or seriously offensive” languages in rants against a fellow barrister.

A spokesman for the Bar Standards Board said that the decision “demonstrates the serious consequences that can arise from such offensive and abusive behaviour online”.
...
Sarah Phillimore, questioned why no one had stepped in as Ms Hewson ranted online, saying that it is the “awful realisation about my profession that is the most painful and frightening thing” of the three year saga.

Ms Phillimore...said that at the time Ms Hewson’s judgement was “seriously impaired” and yet she was allowed “free reign” to abuse others online.

The “apathy and cowardice of my profession” was partly to blame as well as those who “should know better” giving Ms Hewson support, it was said.

“All of you who stood by silently or worse, encouraged and supported her are complicit,” Ms Phillimore wrote on social media. “Had you said something, done something - anything! - earlier, would we now be contemplating the tragic wreckage of a once impressive career? I don’t know.”

[[]www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/21/barrister-suspended-foul-mouthed-rant-fellow-lawyer/]

tbh, didn't a Times' journalist win a retraction from somebody who made the suicide accusation in re: her articles?

CrazyToast · 23/12/2019 18:50

Not long ago JM gave money to a GC crowdfunder (then took it back after criticism). At the time I messaged with him and he was reasonable and able to see different viewpoints. I am puzzled as to how he has gone from being that person, to this accusatory misogynist insulting people on twitter without a shade of irony or self-awareness. What happened? I thought he was a decent guy.

Original poster
Devereux1 · 23/12/2019 18:50

didn't a Times' journalist win a retraction from somebody who made the suicide accusation in re: her articles?

IDK, anyone know about this?

I'm starting to think that all the lights aren't quite on in JM's house.

OP posts:
littlbrowndog · 23/12/2019 18:53

Yeah am not sure which journal it’s was maybe joani welsh.

But am not sure

IrenetheQuaint · 23/12/2019 18:57

It was Janice Turner, wasn't it?

ArranUpsideDown · 23/12/2019 20:41

Thank you! I remembered it was Janice Turner and had the name Helen in my head but was defaulting to Mermaids' Islan rather than Belcher (IYSWIM).

definitelygc · 23/12/2019 20:52

I really think Twitter can affect some people's ability to think rationally. Having constant arguments in 140 characters, surrounded by people shouting from the stands, is not conducive to logical or reasonable thought. Look at what happened to Owen Jones - he's totally lost the plot now.

bd67th · 23/12/2019 21:18

Barbara Hewson, a human rights lawyer, was suspended for two years

That would be the Barbara Hewson who advocated for the age of consent to be lowered to 13 after the Savile revelations and has argued that most rape victims bear some moral responsibility for their rapes?

Couldn't have happened to a nastier piece of work.

Original poster
Devereux1 · 23/12/2019 21:36

I am puzzled as to how he has gone from being that person, to this

I am genuinely of the opinion that JM is starting to lose the plot. I don't know if we're watching some sort of breakdown, but it's as if he is suffering from some sort of mania.

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IrenetheQuaint · 23/12/2019 21:36

That Barbara Hewson case is grim, and in a different league from JM being a smug wanker on Twitter - she harassed a fellow lawyer who was granted a protection order. JM has not done anything like that, as far as I'm aware.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 23/12/2019 22:02

I watched the Barbara Hewson case play out live. Her harrassment of Sarah Phillimore was unconscionable, as was the way she aggressively targeted victims of child sexual abuse. She was relentless, like a dog with a bone, and would not leave those identifying themselves as CSA survivors alone. And it was her pursuing them. Not vice versa.

I followed this as someone who has also been the victim of rape and sexual abuse and was open-mouthed at some of the filth she posted before she locked down her Twitter account. It was also painfully apparent that this is a woman who was very unwell (although that in no way excuses her behaviour).

I think this does raise questions about Bar Standards. Watching this shitstorm unfold I recall thinking that the SRA would - and have in the past - struck solicitors off for much less.

ArranUpsideDown · 23/12/2019 22:04

JM has not done anything like that, as far as I'm aware.

It was more a comment on how substantially someone needs to stray from the path for professional standards to trigger the Bar Council to intervene. And it felt the more tragic that it seems to be agreed that Hewson had previously had an excellent career and was well-respected before her behaviour lapsed and matters went awry. I think Phillimore was arguing that earlier intervention by her peers might have saved Hewson from herself.

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 23/12/2019 22:07

Also - HR isn't really known as an area of law that attracts the best and the brightest frankly. Not saying they're all doofuses but the really brilliant ones go into other areas.