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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help me get my ducks in a row here...

57 replies

GCSciFiFan · 23/12/2019 08:58

Ok so I seem to have some friends (who I thought had more brains but hey ho) who believe that because Alice Roberts says there's more than two sexes it must be true.

Anyway - I'm happy with the definition of your sex being to do with your reproductive class...but I can see a glaring hole in that one that she will find and I don't know an answer that will work....

If you are a woman because you are of the class of people who produce large, stationary gametes, how do you know you are a member of that class if you don't produce them (ie are infertile)? Why doesn't your class change (if we use that definition) if you have your ovaries removed?

How do you then say that "you are still a member of that class even though your biology is broken" without opening that up to men saying that they are actually a member of that class just with more badly broken biology?

(And no, I'm not saying infertile women aren't women - I'm preparing an answer to the argument).

My worry with this is that you are a member of that class because either it's blindingly obvious in the same way as the fact you are human is blindingly obvious - or we are back to a woman is someone without a Y chromosome (Do I mean a working SRY region on the Y chromosome here?) - at which point why use the reproductive class argument?

Then you get into the "but scientists say that it's more complicated than just chromosomes"...and I'll end up where we started. Plus she will then bring up sex-changing fish (apparently birds and mammals are unusual in having their sex linked to chromosomes rather than other factors - I checked) and will use the "if fish can do it then scientists in the future will be able to make humans do it - you'd never have predicted IVF etc" argument....

On a slight tangent does anyone know of anywhere in the world that has a useable, non-circular legal definition of sex?

OP posts:
Fraggling · 24/12/2019 12:20

Gotta say I'm not a fan of women calling other women bitches, esp on FWR, irrespective of what they have done.

HorseWithNoHumbuggery · 24/12/2019 12:44

They want to argue about how many angels dance on the head of a pin.

It's two:

One to change the lightbulb and one to get the joke right.

Tocopherol · 24/12/2019 13:21

With chickens you sometimes get a male bird entirely in female plumage, or a chimera where you can see some parts have male and others have female plumage (I've seen a photo of one and a friend briefly had one, HE was very aggressive apparently).

These birds still have one set of gonads and behave accordingly...

BeyondFlubeInclusionaryRF · 24/12/2019 13:26

Thinking about you getting your "ducks in a row", actually ducks are quite a good example of how violent the male of the species can be...

merrymouse · 24/12/2019 13:33

They want you to be defensive, but they are the ones with misogynistic ideas about people.

In particular their denial that it is necessary to recognise sex is based on misogyny and a refusal to recognise the reasons that women need sex based rights and services.

Why do they think that even women with a great deal of privilege have such difficulty fleeing countries like Dubai? What do they think happens to women who don't have that privilege? How do they think society became patriarchal?

Qcng · 24/12/2019 21:00

A man who identifies as a woman is not "an infertile woman" because they can't get pregnant, have a period etc, like an infertile woman can't.

Trans women can actually produce sperm, get an erection and get a woman pregnant. That's kinda the opposite of infertile.

Qcng · 24/12/2019 21:05

A lot of the arguments from TRAs are in response to women saying
"TW don't get periods"
TRA replies "well not all women have periods, so you're saying these women are not women?"

"TW can't get pregnant"
TRA replies "Not all women can get pregnant are you saying infertile women aren't women?"

They completely dodge the fact that majority TW can ejaculate, are fertile, (or a small minority made a choice to compromise their fertility for cosmetic reasons) which is COMPLETELY different to a woman who can't get pregnant.
It's not even really worth bothering to argue with stupid.

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