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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Douglas Murray on intolerant politics

784 replies

BovaryX · 15/12/2019 12:43

There is an interesting article by Douglas Murray in the DM about the authoritarian, identity politics which have alienated Labour voters and triggered a paradigm shift in the political landscape. It covers some of the themes which Lang GC Pencils and others have been discussing in light of election result.

It is a divide between people who have real-world concerns and those focused on niche and barely significant ones...How, you might ask, have we reached such a state? There is a clue in the Labour Party’s dysfunctional reaction to its catastrophic defeat on Thursday

OP posts:
Tocopherol · 23/12/2019 08:45

Don't enjoy it too much, some of you are sounding very far-right-white-male-supportive.

Douglas Murray on intolerant politics
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/12/2019 08:52

Well that's you scolded, ladies!

LangCleg · 23/12/2019 09:14

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Do you mean the white males with a "gender identity" in the US, more of whom voted for Trump than for Clinton?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/12/2019 09:17

I wonder if it ever occurs to people who start statements with "repeat after me" (a rather rude command) that the quite reasonable response might be "no".

Tocopherol · 23/12/2019 09:20

Yeah, those ones. Hmm

LangCleg · 23/12/2019 09:21

I'm still laughing at....

CIVIL RIGHTS FOR HETEROSEXUAL BOURGEOIS WHITE MALES NOW!

Only the far right would vote against this!

BarbaraStrozzi · 23/12/2019 09:53

A whole thread with a nuanced discussion of identity politics, with thoughtful, respectful participation from both sides of the political divide, and input from people with lived experience of being on the receiving end of racism.. then up pops a poster with a one line telling-off and a screen grab of a tweet hectoring us to "repeat after me."

Does it never cross your mind, Toc, that engaging with the debate and trying to give reasoned arguments to people might be a more effective strategy than assuming they are bad people and telling them off?

AutumnRose1 · 23/12/2019 09:54

upfield “ . I believe identity politics is pushed by those who don't have this experience and have discomfort/guilt dealing with people from different ethnicities. They make it an issue, because for them an ethnically diverse society is theoretical rather than first hand experience.”

Maybe, but it’s quite hard to believe that some if the followers of identity politics didn’t have similar backgrounds?

LangCleg · 23/12/2019 10:11

I think it's very generous of Barbara to assume a capacity to engage with the debate and give reasoned arguments!

BarbaraStrozzi · 23/12/2019 10:18

I agree, Autumn. Some of the aims of what broadly gets categorised as "identity politics" are laudable - accepting that various forms of prejudice (racism, sexism, disablism, etc) are real, and can and frequently do become institutionalised. And that if you're a member of one of the relatively privileged members of society (white middle class for eg) it's easy not to notice this going on around you. As an analysis of why there are more barriers in your way if you're black, female, disabled, English as a second language, I think this will speak to you.

I like John Scalzi's analogy of being white male and middle class being like playing a computer game on the lowest difficulty setting.

The problem comes with the hangers-on - the student politics types itching to get offended on someone else's behalf, or worse, those claiming membership of a group they don't actually belong to (Lisa Simpson and the Hitachi tribe).

Elfnsafe1y · 23/12/2019 10:44

I was thinking about the use of faggot in Fairytale of NY. If we go back in time and ban every song that has a racist/sexist/homophobic/ anti-semitic phrase there will be little left. Shakespeare included.
I think we need to agree that the past is the past. If you remove all the politically incorrect references in the past then you also remove the evidence that it was in common usage. This proved the homo phobia or whatever was rife.
We now know that it is offensive so must not use it (though there is blatant sexism and other offences still).

It used to be accepted that when you move to a new country you try to fit in, adopt the customs to some extent, learn the language, get involved

I now don't think this was true. It was not the case in colonial times when the English language, law etc etc was introduced to other countries. And nowadays people who retire abroad don't make a point of learning the language. It was what was said here about immigrants but, imv, because we believed we had a better country and way of life that we assumed people would want to adopt.

Also in some countries if you DON"T adopt their life style you can be penalised eg Saudi . When I lived in the US people who appeared to be from India, possibly Pakistan, all wore western dress. Perhaps it wasn't accepted to dress traditionally (US a nation of immigrants) or perhaps they chose to.
Many countries are very corrupt which we aren't, having a non corrupt police and unarmed police is a pretty good thing imv.
I'm sure some immigrants would adopt our life style if they weren't restricted by strict adherence to religious laws, maintained by a patriarchy or patriarchal church.

UpfieldHatesWomen · 23/12/2019 10:50

For many, I think it's well-intentioned and comes from a place of wanting to be inclusive, but ironically those with a sense of superiority due to their upbringing are often the ones we find making patronising demands for the plebs to 'repeat after me' as we've just seen. Noblesse oblige, as someone upthread mentioned. I also think it's to do with anyone passing through the education system being drenched in theories supporting identity politics throughout, and very rarely having these ideas challenged. I have two postgraduate degrees and have started to realise what a miserable excuse for an education I've had. I feel quite angry about it, that I've been indoctrinated rather than challenged, I haven't been given a thorough education at all, and I have attended well-respected institutions. It's only now that I'm free from the education system I can actually learn by reading texts which challenge the narrative I've been taught.
I've just been reading this in 'Fools, Frauds and Firebrands' by Roger Scruton, talking about class but might apply (better) to identity politics "By seeing society in class terms we are programmed to find antagonism at the heart of all the institutions through which people have attempted to limit it. Nation, law, faith, tradition, sovereignty – these ideas by contrast denote things that unite us. It is in terms of them that we attempt to articulate the fundamental togetherness that mitigates social rivalries, whether of class, status or economic role. Hence it has been a vital project on the left, to which Hobsbawm made his own distinctive contribution, to show that these things are in some way illusory, standing for nothing durable or fundamental in the social order."

Verily1 · 23/12/2019 11:07

I don’t understand why the U.K. isn’t more like France in expecting newcomers to adopt French culture.

But I can see the negatives in that being quite dictatorial.

My experience of Asian friends at school in 80/90s was that the more middle class ones eg dcs of doctors and dentists were more westernised eg giving dcs ‘western’ names, pushing female education, western dress, whereas the more working class pupils were more likely to have names from their culture, women in rigid homemaker roles, and stronger links to the culture of origin.

So maybe it’s this intersection of race and class which is unique to England and isn’t understood through a US lens.

AutumnRose1 · 23/12/2019 11:22

Upfield "I have two postgraduate degrees and have started to realise what a miserable excuse for an education I've had. I feel quite angry about it, that I've been indoctrinated rather than challenged, I haven't been given a thorough education at all, and I have attended well-respected institutions."

oh. That's really interesting, but obviously I feel for you. I'd be interested to know what your subjects were, but of course I understand if you'd rather not say.

Dolorabelle · 23/12/2019 11:23

I don’t understand why the U.K. isn’t more like France in expecting newcomers to adopt French culture

I was a migrant to another English-speaking country as a child, where the policy was assimilation - that is a kind of coercion & compulsion which is not pleasant. I tried to "pass" but felt such a sense of relief & relaxation when I settled back in the UK as an adult.

So while I think that elements of a common culture are very important - including a common central language - I am sceptical about any blanket statements or solutions.

That's the thing isn't it? This is a nuanced & multi-stranded debate. It's not black & white - there are no goodies and baddies except at both extremes.

Dolorabelle · 23/12/2019 11:26

So maybe it’s this intersection of race and class which is unique to England and isn’t understood through a US lens

Yup - I think class and relative wealth/poverty is really important here - this is real 'intersectionality.'

AutumnRose1 · 23/12/2019 11:27

Dolorabelle "I was a migrant to another English-speaking country as a child, where the policy was assimilation - that is a kind of coercion & compulsion which is not pleasant."

what does it actually involve please?

hipsterfun · 23/12/2019 11:44

I don’t understand why the U.K. isn’t more like France in expecting newcomers to adopt French culture.

Setting aside non-majority nationalities/ethnicities for a moment, UK culture, certainly latterly, accommodates a diversity of subcultures (if that’s the right word) surprisingly well. And we love a bit of eccentricity. And then there’s that libertarian streak. Perhaps that accounts for a laissez-faire attitude around culture?

UpfieldHatesWomen · 23/12/2019 11:45

Autumn rose I don't really want to say the subjects, but one institution I went to was (drumroll) Goldsmiths, so that should give you an idea. Haha, and I said 'well-respected', my bad.

Jillyhilly · 23/12/2019 11:50

I have two postgraduate degrees and have started to realise what a miserable excuse for an education I've had. I feel quite angry about it, that I've been indoctrinated rather than challenged, I haven't been given a thorough education at all, and I have attended well-respected institutions. It's only now that I'm free from the education system I can actually learn by reading texts which challenge the narrative I've been taught.

That is quite something to reckon with. I can imagine how angry you feel. It’s an important thing to realise though, and if nothing else you’ll stop your kids making the same mistake?

I work in HE, in a student support role. Diversity and Inclusion absolutely dominates the agenda of everything we do. The political environment seems suffocating to me sometimes. It is depressing. I don’t like it at all, but don’t know what to do about it.

Jillyhilly · 23/12/2019 11:53

*Oh crikey upfield I know Goldies only too well Hmm

BarbaraStrozzi · 23/12/2019 11:53

I'd hate for us to go down the French route of banning the Niqab, having armed police hassle a woman on the beach for wearing a bikini, have a list of state approved first names (which IIRC excludes some Breton names), which has such strict privacy laws that their press can't report on a defence minister having an affair with someone who works for an arms company.

I want to live in a society where women can choose to wear the Niqab and at the same time I am free to express why I personally, as a feminist, think that choice is a bad one.

AutumnRose1 · 23/12/2019 12:00

Upfield oh, Goldsmiths...

Jilly that must be very difficult. I have a lot of literary and historical interests so follow a few uni accounts on Twitter and sometimes I'm amazed at the things I see. Every PhD student seems to be putting their pronouns in their bio and making a big deal of them.

then there's intersectionality and the fact that things which happened centuries ago now seem to be analysed differently due to identity politics.

of course, to some extent this will be about making money as people keep increasing fields of study, but it's depressing.

AutumnRose1 · 23/12/2019 12:02

Barbara all those examples worry me, but I would ban the full face covering.

I was actually wondering what would happen if anyone got on a bus wearing a motorcycle helmet, for example. I presume it would be okay.

but as soon as couriers arrive in reception at work, they are asked to take a helmet off (if they haven't already). So what happens when we inevitably get someone wanting to wear full face covering at work?

BarbaraStrozzi · 23/12/2019 12:38

At the moment there seems to be a compromise - not legally enshrined as I understand it but fairly well enshrined in practice, that you can ask people to remove face coverings in public places where security or identity matters. So for instance someone with a motorbike helmet walking into a bank, or a woman in a Niqab giving evidence in court.

As I understand it, the wearing of a Niqab is a religious decision to imitate one of the prophet's wives, not a requirement connected to the Islamic belief that both sexes should dress modestly, so requesting its removal is different from, say, telling women they can't wear burkinis to the beach.

For me, the acid test is "why is this making me uncomfortable?" If it's down to fairly arbitrary rules about what counts as modest/immodest (which all societies and cultures have, my own included - otherwise why would I feel uncomfortable about going topless on a beach in the S of France), then I should probably let it go.

But seeing people's faces is pretty fundamental to communication, and pretty much cross cultural (including among men in cultures where women go veiled), which is why I think the Niqab goes beyond arbitrary rules on modesty and into the realms of the dehumanising.

However, that's how I see it from outside - as a patriarchal rule whose purported explanation (immigration of one of the wives of the Prophet) is just a post hoc rationalisation. To a woman within a Western culture who has chosen this as a religious and political statement, my claims about "patriarchal post hoc rationalisation" probably come across as patronising.

However, so long as we sort the practical issues - that it's okay to expect her to unveil in a court of law, for instance - then I'm okay with her wearing it on the occasions where it doesn't matter, so long as she's okay with my freedom to express that I think it's a regressive choice.