Douglas Murray on intolerant politics

[BovaryX]

There is an interesting article by Douglas Murray in the DM about the authoritarian, identity politics which have alienated Labour voters and triggered a paradigm shift in the political landscape. It covers some of the themes which Lang GC Pencils and others have been discussing in light of election result.

It is a divide between people who have real-world concerns and those focused on niche and barely significant ones...How, you might ask, have we reached such a state? There is a clue in the Labour Party’s dysfunctional reaction to its catastrophic defeat on Thursday

It's incredible reading this thread, it is one of the best I've read on Mumsnet.

If Labour had had this sort of conversation at the conference maybe they wouldn't have lost the Red Wall.

There’s a really interesting Free Thinking programme on Radio 3 - you can get it on the BBC Radio app the (awful) Sounds.

It features Douglas Murray and Bea Campbell and Maya ? (Ach didn’t catch her last name). It’s very interesting and robust. I found myself agreeing and disagreeing with all 3 speakers at various points.

I think Bea Campbell is fabulous - I’ve rather her stuff for years ( her voice was a lifeline to the North when I was exiled in Sydney for a few years - she had a regular gig on Philip Adams’ late night highly intelligent radio programme on the ABC).

She’s always been a really tough and intersectional feminist re class and sex - she maintains this approach without going in for po-mo relativism, while being aware of the constructed ness of much of our identity politics. A complex position which she makes clear and accessible.

She’s fabulous and has been what we now have to call a “gender critical “ feminist (it’s just basic feminism as far as I’m concerned) for yonks.

Yes ProdigalKitten everyone should see Die Fettenjahre Sind Vorbei (The Edukators). I saw it when it came out and I understood it as a reflection on die Wende, and also a bit of Oststalgie but now you raise it - eerily predictive

If Labour had had this sort of conversation at the conference maybe they wouldn't have lost the Red Wall.

Sadly, it's looking entirely unlikely they're intending to have it even now.

the young, seem to be encouraged to separate themselves and cling to an ethnic identity as if it entirely defines them

I have that same feeling regards to young people. Not just with ethnicity. I am autistic and I also have a fairly rare genetic disease. I have noticed a change in my lifetime and it's very identity politics-y and it's all on the internet. It is great that with social media you can find people you can relate with and who understand what you're going through. But I have this sense of unease about it too. People seem to be putting their various "identity" attributes at the front and foremost of everything. I wonder how much internet profiling for advertising and marketing purposes has to do with it.

we now have to call a “gender critical “ feminist

This really gets me.
Anyone who has misgivings about the new wave of gender consciousness or concerns about numbers of children desiring sex change are radical feminists, terfs or at least feminists- why can I not just be a person who is concerned, a bog standard human-being, Joe Bloggs, woman in the street, it's pure manipulation of speech and vocabulary. Making a normal statement sound angry or argumentative.

I am going to watch/listen to recs here, thank you.

How does an ordinary Jane put the boot into all the identity politics shit?

I have noticed a change in my lifetime and it's very identity politics-y and it's all on the internet. It is great that with social media you can find people you can relate with and who understand what you're going through. But I have this sense of unease about it too.
The scary thing about the internet is not that you can meet people exactly like you, but that you can exclude people who aren't exactly like you. Broad churches like workplaces are now less influential for young people working gig jobs. School and uni is stratified. Going out is too expensive for many young people. At what point does a woke young thing ever get influenced by anyone outside their bubble?

The scary thing about the internet is not that you can meet people exactly like you, but that you can exclude people who aren't exactly like you. Broad churches like workplaces are now less influential for young people working gig jobs.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000c9sm

This is worth a listen.

My post wasn't meant to be laden with patronising cliches. It was laden with observations of my husband, who's spent years working minimum wage jobs in one of the most deprived areas of Europe. It's based on the observations of a white, native English speaking immigrant who constantly gets people non-ironically complaining to HIM about bloody immigrants, because, let's face it, they're not talking about the white English speaking ones, THOSE ones are okay.

I am an environmental doomsdayer. I think there are huge problems with immigration, and that it will get worse and worse and horrifically worse in the years to come. But I still think that racism plays a huge part in a lot of people's views on it.

And I cannot help but think that there is something else going on when a single mother working 16 hours a week moans about having no sympathy for benefit scroungers, not realising that half the population think that she is one of them.

Flying “Broad churches like workplaces are now less influential for young people working gig jobs”

But pretty much every London office based job has been wokeified. Presumably also retail, judging by changing room sagas. Two friends in hospitality - chain hotel - say the same.

So if the gig economy means that someone who might have worked in one job for a couple of years is now gigging, I’m thinking they might be exposed to a bit more freedom and a bit less woke. And have less company woke forced on them. I really hope delivery drivers arent being asked to wear their pronouns on a badge....

Harriet I have been depression, anxiety, asthma and a couple of other chronic health issues. I try to keep them quiet. Interestingly, I’ve been listening to Sam Fender’s music recently, love his stuff, and I heard something about him having health issues but also not wanting to make them public because it changes the narrative of a career. Advance warning, he does have a song about “white privilege” though! Groan.

Does identity politics help fragment the national identity and undermine the nation state? Does somebody want it to?

I still think there is something odd going on with Open Borders. It matches with other recent developments: being proud of being British is labelled nationalistic rather than patriotic. If you are English, liking your own culture and wanting to preserve your own community
is labelled by some as racist and xenophobic. Not supporting open borders or continued high net immigration: ditto.

We are mixed in together and instructed to be culturally relativistic and completely tolerant (but also highly cognisant!) of each other's differences and promised social nirvana as a consequence.

But to don my tinfoil hat, the moral bullying from on high and refusal to debate the problems and clashes that have arisen gives me a sense of a hidden agenda to it all and that makes me dig my heels in intellectually.

But pretty much every London office based job has been wokeified. Presumably also retail, judging by changing room sagas. Two friends in hospitality - chain hotel - say the same.
I meant more that there was less chance of them being exposed to different people. I guess my view has been influenced by working for large employers myself and having enjoyed meeting all different types of people.
You're probably right though, it might not make much difference if the company has set political views its serfs are supposed to parrot.

Antibes have you read Murray’s book on immigration?

If we’re going for cock up rather than conspiracy, then I can see that having caused havoc, the politicians responsible don’t have a clue what to do.

I don’t think there’s a conspiracy though, that’s too mad...but props to any politicians willing to tackle it. And apologies for the Americanism there 😂

I still think there is something odd going on with Open Borders.
It's a terrible idea?

Seriously though, it really is. There's no way it could possibly work in practice.
No borders equals no nation. No nation equals no set of laws. No set of laws equals biggest corporation wins. And ironically the only people from the global south who could feasibly take advantage of a no-borders policy in a developed country would be the better off.
Never mind the fact it's the righteous giving away what isn't theirs (again). There's a pattern. Here, EU, have national sovereignty! Here, men, have women's spaces and sports! Here, all of you, come and have Lincolnshire!

It used to be accepted that when you move to a new country you try to fit in, adopt the customs to some extent, learn the language, get involved.
Thinking about this; who decided this was no longer important? My best guess is that it wasn't immigrants themselves.
Unless someone finds themselves in the UK under duress (not trafficked but they'd rather be elsewhere) then most immigrants are pretty pleased to be here and had a positive view of the UK.
So who decided segregation (which is what multiculturalism is in a nutshell) was better than integration?
I know communities naturally want to live close together etc but the idea of cultural relativism, "community leaders" and the practice of leaving isolated and often troubled communities entirely to their own devices seems to be a deliberate ploy.
It's been a long day but I wonder if multiculturalism was thought up by racists who just wanted cheap labour imported to suppress wages but who didn't actually want immigrants anywhere near them.

I don't know Flying but the idea of accepting segregation is soaked through all public service organisations; local council, NHS etc. I think it began as a way to be respectful of non UK cultures, but it has ended up with acceptance of a lot of things that are not great e.g women not learning English and whole estates populated by people from the same country. It feels to me like it actually breeds suspicion between cultures.
I also find it quite..I don't know the word.. .patronising? Like, oh these immigrants and the way they live, they don't know any better.
It's like BAME. I mean, what is that? It covers bloody everyone! What does a 3rd generation Kashmiri from Keighley have in common with a newly arrived Nigerian student? Nothing but humanity, and yet they are both "BAME" . It seems so mealy mouthed and meaningless to me.
And I know, I know, there has to be a better way to say " not white" but BAME could mean white anyway! (Polish and so on)..
Sorry I went on a rant and I'm not even sure what my point is!

I think the biggest mistake was for local politicians to adopt the practice of talking to 'community's leaders rather than recognising the huge range of opinions in any group. As a librarian I spent a lot of time with real people who had very different ideas who were just ignored.
I was always in favour of multi cultural approach, celebrating different festivals, the wide range of brilliant stories and folk tales. It was really positive and fun, then it all went sour, I'm not sure when or why.

Yes Autumn I have although it was a while ago.

Conspiracy is a loaded word so I would prefer to say I think there are financial/corporate vested interests that may see problems but will deliberately continue on the same path if it is making them money, but they won't want to shout about it. Politicians will support that path if it maintains GDP because nobody wants a recession. That leads to a whole 'nother debate about consumption v the environment...

Yes flying I agree about open borders. What you write fits with the above, namely that global corporations may not like nation states with their pesky different rules.

Let's face it. If the left wing were truly about sharing everything out more equally, we'd have to equalise with the whole world, and we'd be as fucked as the rest of them are (poor buggers). Very few of even the most left wing are truly that egalitarian if they are honest with themselves. We want to equalise a bit more locally. That needs solidarity, not equality.

It's like BAME. I mean, what is that? It covers bloody everyone! What does a 3rd generation Kashmiri from Keighley have in common with a newly arrived Nigerian student? Nothing but humanity, and yet they are both "BAME"
Exactly, it's just racist to clump the two together. They have nothing in common.

I think the biggest mistake was for local politicians to adopt the practice of talking to 'community's leaders
"Community Leaders" really boil my piss.

Imagine if "everything white English people thought" was arbitrarily decided by old Keith down the pub who knocks his wife about. Keith does the postal vote for his whole extended family, Keith is on the local council but doesn't attend much, Keith opposed evening classes for women on the grounds that they should be at home making dinner, Keith has been accused of keeping crime secret and encouraging everyone in his community to ignore or resist the police. Keith is always on telly being consulted. Half of the people who know him hate him, but Keith is in charge. When laws are made, Keith's opinion is asked and no-one else's. Keith knows everything about his community and everything it needs and doesn't have to consult with anyone else. Keith himself does quite well out of all this financially.

I'm not sure Flying but in Birmingham there was a lot of tension between new immigrants and 3rd generation. Growing up a lot of my friends were from a South Asian background but there wasn't really any divisions apart from some friendly rivalry during the cricket. That changed a lot after new immigrants started shaming Muslim families who let their daughters hang around with us non-Muslims.

It segregated pretty fast, with a few girls from the wealthier (and slightly more secular) Muslim families being shunned for continuing to hang out with us. In the space of 3 years I went from having a vague idea of the backgrounds of my friends to knowing explicitly who was from where originally and which denomination religion they were, and God help those who were from mixed backgrounds.

Politicians will support that path if it maintains GDP because nobody wants a recession.
The quickest way to raise GDP is to import a bunch of people and then sell them credit.
GDP per capita is falling as GDP rises.