Douglas Murray on intolerant politics

[BovaryX]

There is an interesting article by Douglas Murray in the DM about the authoritarian, identity politics which have alienated Labour voters and triggered a paradigm shift in the political landscape. It covers some of the themes which Lang GC Pencils and others have been discussing in light of election result.

It is a divide between people who have real-world concerns and those focused on niche and barely significant ones...How, you might ask, have we reached such a state? There is a clue in the Labour Party’s dysfunctional reaction to its catastrophic defeat on Thursday

I think “scrounger” is the wrong word, though, in that these are benefits to which people are entitled; the issue is more that the benefits system has created a set of perverse incentives which runs counter to a culture of financial independence and mutual self-support.

I don't know if I think that's quite such a universal attitude, that scroungers and working class people are the same. Or even that the poor and scroungers are the same, I don't think most middle class lefties think that.
I do think sometimes people can be a little naive, and sometimes in that discussion middle class and working class people talk past each other a bit.
My experience has been that when socialists seem blasé about scrounging, it is for a few reasons. They think there will always be a portion of dishonest people and while we might want to minimise that we won't prevent it; that it is better to have some of that then people in need going without; that sometimes it is difficult to tell for sure if someone is really being lazy and dishonest or if there are other issues.

And personally, I would agree with all of those things. Maybe most of all I agree though that scroungers are by no means the biggest parasites in our society so I am not inclined to demonise them more than the high-end variety who get on the covers of magazines and such.

But it's also true I think that the way you structure social supports affects things like values around work, people's attitudes to taking advantage, more broadly. And maybe that can undermine social values around hard work, saving, and so on. I also know, because there are a number of people in my extended family who are to some degree like that, that it is an insidious mindset. They are not out to bilk their fellow citizens, but they have few qualms about large faceless entities. For the most part they see it as what they are owed as citizens, these are programs and benefits that they have a right to. Those of us in the family though can see that they are not being quite honest perhaps, especially not with themselves.
And it's pretty maddening when you see it in front of you, when someone is doing very well by being dishonest, even just a little dishonest, while you are struggling. Values like independence and hard work really require a lot of community support in order to flourish.

I haven't visited London in a long time and am a bit scared to do so, honestly, just because it would be so sad to see the things I liked most about it lost.

One’s perceptions of London are heavily influenced by a personal notion of what London actually is as a place. This one may take a little explaining...

Academics talking about the urban experience often talk about the ”necessary city” and the “contingent city”. The necessary city is made up from iconic places; in London’s case this would be made up of locations such as the West End, Soho, landmarks like Tower Bridge or Hyde Park, and so on. The contingent city, meanwhile, are all the places which are required for the parts of the necessary city to function. This can include roads and railways, but also places in which people live.

People generally consider the necessary city more “real” than the contingent city. People don’t like change in the necessary city, but can actively welcome change to the contingent city, if they perceive it as being in their interest; it’s okay to knock down a hundred houses to build a relief road, providing it’s not your house being knocked down.

The idea of what constitutes necessary or contingent will vary, based upon whether you are an “anywhere” or a “somewhere”. If you grew up in Leytonstone, the local landscape is probably of some importance to you; if you grew up elsewhere, it’s probably just somewhere you sleep, whilst you live a life which is mostly focused around central London.

Because policy is created by “anywheres”, the quality of life in contingent London has markedly decreased, as resources have been concentrated on serving necessary London. In the aforementioned Leytonstone, the family homes of twenty years ago have been replaced by what are essesentially barracks, housing Eastern European workers, eight to a room. Meanwhile, central London, focus of the “anywheres”, is looking more opulent than ever before...

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread.

I've been thinking about poor working class people voting Conservative as being a bit like women being less likely to convict rapists.

When you're working your fingers to the bone and only just getting by, it's easy to lack sympathy for people making no effort and being only a little worse off. However, I think there is an element of thinking, "If it's their fault they are on benefits, then it means it won't happen to me."

There is definitely an element of racism going on amongst working class voters. Saying that Labour didn't listen to legitimate concerns about immigration is right, but widening this to say that a disturbingly large amount of people are not the racist little shits they actually are is wrong. Racism had a massive contribution to Brexit (this is spoken from personal experience as someone married to an immigrant in one of the Brexit voting Northern towns).

And finally, I think that Labour is failing because it appears to be emasculated to working class men. In the seventies, Labour was all about worker's rights, Power to the People, Down tools and walk out! It was a very masculine message. Now it's seen as being a yoghurt weaving club. The vision of left-wing working class masculinity is Skint. In contrast, the Conservatives offer an image to working class men of reclaiming their sovereignty, taking back their country, etc. All of which is much more manly.

I still haven't quite collated these thoughts into proper form, but I hope you get the idea about the masculinity thing. Hopefully you can get the gist without my words being ideal.

I've been thinking about poor working class people voting Conservative as being a bit like women being less likely to convict rapists

I think that’s pretty offensive. In fact your entire post is laden with the patronizing cliches which have alienated millions of voters. You haven’t read the whole thread? I suggest you read Douglas Murray’s article which was its raisin d’etre. Repeatedly calling voters ‘racist little shits’ is the kind of ad hominem, demonization tactics Murray critiques.

raison damn auto correct!

That’s very interesting about the necessary and contingent city John. I hadn’t heard those terms before.

I live and work in the West End so necessary city in both parts of my life. And yes there is a lot of money lavished on parts of my village. Specifically I work in Mayfair where there is rarely a leaf out of place. But we also really struggle with homelessness as I’ve mentioned before on this thread. My local high st (quite a well known street) is a hub for homeless people (mainly Roma) and begging day and night. There’s a small shanty town of tents that pops up now and again on the route of my walk to work. It is also virtually impossible to get a GP - I have just left one which became overwhelmed by serving the transient population here. So although parts of this place are buffed to perfection we also have a great deal of stress and pressure which the local council struggles to deal with.

I keep making the point about Roma because I think the Roma issue encapsulates a lot of what is being said. Most of the Roma gangs here are not quite trafficked but it’s certainly organised. There are groups of women and some children with a male minder, carving up the street and targeting particular venues. They are in my particular area as it has a very large Arab population who are under a religious requirement to give alms particularly to children. Overnight every single doorway is occupied - again usually by a group of women and one man. The children don’t seem to be sleeping out though thankfully.

The issue highlights the one of the downsides of untrammelled immigration which of course we are not allowed to talk about as well as the fact that this particular group of homeless people do not want help in the way that we would imagine homeless people want help.

What can our local council do? Absolutely nothing it seems. So we live with seeing this awfulness on our streets and get inured to the degradation.

They are in my particular area as it has a very large Arab population who are under a religious requirement to give alms particularly to children

I have seen what you describe, that’s a really interesting point. In parts of the ME, begging is banned. You describe a cascade of effects and the solution to this complex issue is elusive. But certainly an environment where discussing the problem is impossible because of specious charges of racism isn’t at all helpful.

My Dad stopped voting Labour years ago after being not-quite called a racist by a Labour councillor for pointing out that the recent influx of Polish labourers were undercutting his prices, and how was he supposed to deal with that in an industry without unionisation? (No solutions were offered btw, just insults.)

One of his justifications of voting Tory is that they treat benefits as a necessary evil, one to rely on short term and then get on to something self sustaining. By contrast, he thinks Labour want to have a class of people long term dependent on benefits, that it suits their ideas of the working class as a people who are dependent on the state, rather than the backbone of the country that he views himself as.

For him there's a lot more dignity in the Conservative narrative and it actually sounds a lot closer to the old narrative of the Labour party. Labour used to be the party of the workers - something people could be proud of - now it's the party for the vulnerable and needy, and whilst it is an admirable aim there are many people who don't want to label themselves as that.

I get what you're saying about masculinity, and I've no doubt there's racism involved in the Brexit vote too, although there are masses of other reasons why Labour have lost their appeal. I don't think working class people are necessarily harder on benefit scroungers (don't like that word but can't think of a better way to put it right now) they're perhaps just more aware of them. I've known families of petty criminals in my neighborhood who caused nothing but trouble wherever they moved to who lived off benefits, of course it will lead to resentment living among people who trash the neighborhood and cause problems for everyone else while being paid by the state, via your own hard earned wages that you're struggling to live on. I do believe people who are clearly taking advantage like that should be made to work for their benefits. In other ways benefits aren't fair to those who do have at least one worker in the household. I remember when I claimed for a while and lived with my boyfriend who worked part-time (he was a student), and only got JSA because I'd earned enough in the previous year. It was nowhere near enough to live on, wouldn't even cover bills and rent, plus we didn't share our money anyway, so I just had to live off my overdraft. I remember YTS schemes where people I knew from school worked full-time in low skilled jobs for two years earning £40 a week (a pittance then as now), only to be told there was no job for them as a cashier in Farm Foods afterall at the end of it so they then had to sign on, the next batch of 18 year olds brought in and paid a pittance in their place. At the other extreme there was the New Deal for musicians. I'm torn in some ways because I believe in supporting the arts, but it was a massive waste of money, the job market simply isn't there. All part of Blair's Cool Britannia 🤢

I didn’t know that begging is banned in some parts of the ME Bovary. Demonstrates a tiny part of the problems with multiculturalism that we are not allowed to talk about. Roma people end up here as do Arab people. Their two different lifestyles end up being hosted by Britain and come together on my high street with horrible consequences. But we haven’t put any of our own norms in place to manage the negatives. We just watch it and say nothing in case anybody thinks we are not multicultural.

This is where I started to fall out of love with the BBC. They ran a piece on immigration in Lincolnshire - a place with low paid work and few opportunities. The tone was just so Panglossian. Isn’t it marvellous that now every shop in this town is Estonian (I think it was Estonian) and how lovely for the local people to have the chance to learn Estonian. I thought then, is anyone actually listening to local people?

The thing is, it’s fine for people like me with my lovely Romanian nanny and my workforce of highly educated immigrants and all the terribly marvellous restaurants in my area - my children are more likely to eat Lebanese (we have scores of Lebanese restaurants) than fish and chips (there isn’t one nearby). I’ve also lived abroad, speak another language fairly fluently, all that. But there are negatives and we have to be able to acknowledge those as well as the upsides.

JohnR

“ One’s perceptions of London are heavily influenced by a personal notion of what London actually is as a place. This one may take a little explaining...”

I presume none of this supposed to apply to lifelong Londoners.

Though, if you will forgive my honesty, it’s exactly that sort of explanation that makes a lot of us say “WTF”. I can’t know what Prodigal meant though.

But we haven’t put any of our own norms in place to manage the negatives. We just watch it and say nothing in case anybody thinks we are not multicultural

Yep. Begging banned. Another thing that I think is rarely discussed but has myriad negative consequences is the attitude towards lax law enforcement in the West by former citizens of police states with draconian punishments Think about that for a moment. Let’s say you emigrate from a feudal patriarchy where the police are often lethal. And then you arrive in touchy-feely Germany. Or the UK.

This is where I started to fall out of love with the BBC. They ran a piece on immigration in Lincolnshire - a place with low paid work and few opportunities. The tone was just so Panglossian

Yep. Panglossian. And patronizing. This formula has proved toxic for the Labour Party.

Binterested “ Isn’t it marvellous that now every shop in this town is Estonian (I think it was Estonian) and how lovely for the local people to have the chance to learn Estonian. I thought then, is anyone actually listening to local people?”

That would give me the rage too.

Something that surprised me at the time but doesn’t now was when I was canvassing in a recent election was when a 2nd/3rd generation voter of Pakistani origin said he was voting Tory because he didn’t want Eastern European migrants coming in.

Before that I’d naively assumed that one set of migrants would be supportive of another but now I realise assuming that is probably unconscious racism in itself.

Verily1 “ Before that I’d naively assumed that one set of migrants would be supportive of another but now I realise assuming that is probably unconscious racism in itself.”

Yes. I realise it’s commonplace and I’m not having a go, but I also really hate this “generation” immigrant thing. Probably another thing to blame on academics.

I presume none of this supposed to apply to lifelong Londoners.

Of course it applies to lifelong Londoners; someone who grew up in Dagenham will have a different idea of what is necessary and contingent than someone who grew up in Hampstead. But there are perspectives which are pretty much unique to lifelong Londoners; few people are fond of Dagenham other than people who actually grew up in Dagenham...

Though, if you will forgive my honesty, it’s exactly that sort of explanation that makes a lot of us say “WTF”.

It probably shouldn’t, though; intellectually, it’s pretty simple and straightforward, and explains a lot about how people think about and talk about large cities.

And it's pretty maddening when you see it in front of you, when someone is doing very well by being dishonest, even just a little dishonest, while you are struggling. Values like independence and hard work really require a lot of community support in order to flourish

Absolutely! And this sort of scenario often has a tendency to turn people towards the right, in terms of law & order and so on...... ideas about self reliance and personal responsibility come into play when you are doing all of the 'right things' and you see others around you completely taking the piss.

Dagenham is Essex. bangs gavel

JohnR “ It probably shouldn’t, though; intellectually, it’s pretty simple and straightforward, and explains a lot about how people think about and talk about large cities.”

My New Year’s resolution is to stop thinking I’m too thick to understand these things. So, okay, if that’s what you think, great.

I get what you're saying about masculinity, and I've no doubt there's racism involved in the Brexit vote too

I think we need to be very careful throwing around terms such as 'racist'. There comes a tendency for any questioning of immigration; or discussion of the cultures of different immigrant or ethnic communities; or those of religious minorities to be, immediately, denounced - in the same way that questioning the trans narrative is automatically deemed transphobic.

There is a need to talk about 'community' and about 'values' and how best to manage a multicultural society. Unless there is a concept of shared value and a common culture which all citizens mediate - then social cohesion will inevitably break down. It's all well & good seeing immigration and multiculturalism through the metropolitan lens of ethnic delicatessens and bakeries and arts events......without ever stopping to consider how we manage cultural clashes and divisions.

*It probably shouldn’t, though; intellectually, it’s pretty simple and straightforward, and explains a lot about how people think about and talk about large cities8

Perhaps you should lay out what you mean when you say 'necessary' and 'contingent'...then we could all engage and discuss whilst being on the same page.

I'm imagining that when you say 'necessary' you are suggesting that which is 'real/actual' - and when you say' contingent' you are suggesting that which is 'imagined/idealised? The reality of a place, versus its place in the imagination?

It probably shouldn’t, though; intellectually, it’s pretty simple and straightforward, and explains a lot about how people think about and talk about large cities

If i understand your premise correctly, then i would suggest it is not just about how people think of large cities, but about any community or place. For example, the urge to return to one's childhood home or childhood family holiday location stems from a holistic vision that encapsulates all of one's essential hopes and/or feelings - but often when you get there the 'glamour' fades pretty quickly.

In my experience (what I've witnessed) people who ask where are you from...no where are you really from... Are usually the same skin colour as the people they're asking. I'm thinking of my two closest friends, one is black her parents Nigerian, and the other is Asian and her parents are from India. When out with both of them, it was always men (never saw a woman ask), of the same skin colour as them, who'd press them on where they are "really" from. (London was never accepted as an answer). Maybe because the area we are from is quite a mixed area racially, maybe in a high/predominantly white area it would be different

Definitely! There is often a high degree of wilful segregation in areas of great ethnic and cultural diversity. Once transplanted into a foreign host culture there seems to be a desire to hold onto and define, very strongly, one's native culture. 'Identity' mostly depends, very much, on difference and on separation.

Food For Thought Has multiculturalism resulted in even greater differentiation and more rigid classification, rather than a breaking down of differentiation.

It's not just multiculturalism, though, is it? If we look at trans ideology what we are now seeing is an ever greater set of classifications and 'available' identities: non-binary; gender-queer; two-spirit; pansexual and so on.......The ultimate pick & mix of post modern consumerism.