How would you feel about this? Barking up the wrong tree?

[StrictlyHypothetical]

NC for this and prepared for it to potentially get some backs up. However, I am in a position where I have a bit of influence but would not want it to backfire, so I want to talk in hypotheticals. FWIW I am GC and my views have very much been cemented and shaped by this board although I tend to lurk rather than post.

Backbench, but long-standing (and very safe seat) Conservative MP exploring a 'cause' to throw their weight behind. Not afraid of controversy although not a household name by any stretch of the imagination. Outraged at the idea of self-identification, strongly believes that woman = adult human female and willing to publicly say as much. No social media presence so it would be the old-fashioned way.

HOWEVER. Voting record is not exactly woman-friendly. Voted against same-sex marriage, abortion rights etc. Definitely on the far right of the party. Would you welcome support from this person? Or would you see it as more a hindrance?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/called-scum-told-should-shot-like-campaign-young-tory-election/amp/

Why, strongmummy?

You clearly do read the feminism section of Mumsnet, Strongmummy...

And this is why I can’t read the feminism section of Mumsnet.

Yet obviously you read this thread, in the FWR section, in order to post that. Wash your hands well and hit the 'hide' button, that should help.

@Manderleyagain "There was also a Lincolnshire Conservative mp who wrote about this in the local press."

Maybe Sir John Hayes (Con, South Holland and The Deepings)?

"Business of the House of Commons" 11 April 2019

(John Hayes intervention and Andrea Leadsom - Leader of the House - reply to him)

John Hayes:
hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-04-11/debates/67B2249C-6E2E-4B1E-B574-6D946D30BA2E/BusinessOfTheHouse#contribution-A46E41A9-00B0-4B49-8929-B8CA849795BB

"A number of NHS clinicians have quit the gender identity development service clinic over ethical and safety concerns. They state that they were

“often under pressure to refer young people for life-altering treatment even though they did not believe that it was in the individual’s best clinical interests. …
It feels like conversion therapy for gay children.”

They fear that homophobia is driving a surge in transgender young people. They say that

“experimental treatment is being done on children who have experienced mental health difficulties, abuse and family trauma.”

I know, having spoken to her, that the Minister responsible, the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, my hon. Friend Jackie Doyle-Price, would welcome the opportunity to make a statement, and I hope that the Leader of the House will facilitate that. We are driving too many young people down a road to a destination from which they will never return.

Andrea Leadsom
Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-04-11/debates/67B2249C-6E2E-4B1E-B574-6D946D30BA2E/BusinessOfTheHouse#contribution-C5D98A98-ABCE-4912-BF16-A91EDE9C5A07

"My right hon. Friend raises an incredibly sensitive topic. We want to make the legal gender recognition process less intrusive and bureaucratic for transgender people. Being trans is not an illness and it should not be treated as though it is. That is why we held our consultation on the Gender Recognition Act 2004. It is a sensitive topic, and it is important to hear all views on it, including those of some young people perhaps being pushed to make decisions too early. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Women and Equalities is determined to ensure that we get this right."

-----

John Hayes did well in the election:

"The 'safest Conservative seat in the country' votes again for its MP in Lincolnshire with a huge share of the vote"
www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/local-news/safest-conservative-seat-country-votes-3639969

Martin Blake (Green) 1,613 (3.3% of the vote)
Sir John Hayes (Con) 37,338 (75.7%)
Davina Kirby (Lib Dem) 3,225 (6.5%)
Mark Popple (Lab) 6,500 (13.2%)
Rick Stringer (Ind) 503 (1%)

------

That exchange in the Commons relates, I think, to the "Conversion Therapy: Prohibition" Private Members bill by Geraint Davies MP:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3646964-Conversion-therapy-Prohibition#88887239

----

I think the suggestions of liaising with other MPs, preferably cross-party, are excellent.

From past experience (Trustee national disability rehab charity, member of Parliamentary Liaison Group, rep on joint DoH/DeptEd working groups, etc.) . . .

Parliamentarians in both Commons and Lords:

• welcome opportunities to learn from "People with Experience"
• value and work well together on cross-party initiatives when they have "common cause"
• can exert influence across Govt Depts that are otherwise in silos demarcated by loyalties to their Ministers, eg. Health and Education

Practically, Parliamentarians can host events, organise meetings, etc. in the Palace of Westminster, open to attendance by other Members. Constituents can then lobby their MPs (or any Member of Lords who might be interested) encouraging them to attend, sharing information, etc.

I also think that it is important for the Detrans Advocacy Network to become established as a group that MPs and Parliamentary Committees recognise formally and turn to for information and views.

(I don't think Charlie Evans is on Mumsnet - maybe @DJLippy and/or @NeurotrashWarrior could comment/flag up to Charlie? )

My suggestion would be for the OP and husband to encourage the MP:

• to see detransition as a starting point for learning about all the issues
• to approach MPs and Peers known to be concerned and sympathetic (I am sure we could help by putting a list together - I assume Lewis Moonie would be a good place to start as far as Peers are concerned)
• to organise and host an educational / social event at the Palace of Westminster, inviting the Detrans Advocacy Network to make presentations
• form a cross-party group to continue to explore this issue and recognise the Detrans Advocacy Network for formal liaison.

As well as issues for the NHS, currently failing to support Detransitioners whilst piloting "Trans Health Care Services" for adults, detransitioners are a stepping stone to some necessary conversations about access to women's spaces.

Jo Swinson's garbled comments, that are so ambiguous because we do not know what she means when she refers to "women", are relevant.
(PencilsinSpace transcript of that part of the Radio5 interview:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3763986-jo-swinson-taking-calls-on-radio-5-at-9am?msgid=92202255 )

"JS: I was just going to say ... so, like ... I - the way in which this - this debate plays out, you know, I heard from people who are - um - women who might be women who look more masculine, women who might dress in a particular way, who have found, over the last months and years, with the way that this debate has been playing out, that they have suddenly, in a way that they haven't before, been challenged just for being in the women's loos. You know? Just for, you know, washing their hands at the sink and been challenged. And so I think we get into very dangerous territory if we start assuming that people ..."

My starting points are:

• NO to "Self-ID"
• Repeal or amend the GRA: no more "legal fiction" birth certificates unless exceptional DSD (intersex) related; introduce legal certification of sexed transgender status, eg. "Transgender Identified Male", with "gatekeeping"
• amend EA2010 if required to give appropriate protections against discrimination as well as strengthened, clearer exemptions for single-sex provision

Transmen and detransitioned women seeking access to women's spaces and services is less of a practical issue at the moment than that of "bog-standard males" (sorry, I am sure there is a better way of putting it!), male cross-dressers and a whole variety of transwomen (both GRC and not) accessing women's and mixed-sex spaces.

However, as the public becomes more aware of everything that has been going on, there might well be more widespread "heightened vigilance" that leads to problems around detrans women who are decidedly masculine in appearance. (Many are lesbians, who are already at increased risk of violence).

In anticipation of the whataboutery "What about transwomen!" there really is not much for them to worry about. I have only come across stats relating to murder, rather than "violence against the person" but they all show that the risk of being murdered is less for a man dressed a woman than for other males, for women, for gay men, for lesbians . . in fact, is there any group less "vulnerable" and at risk of violence than transwomen??

"It's safer statistically to be black MTF transgender than a black non trans man and hugely safer to be a white MTF trans person than to be a black man, a white man, or a woman."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3080711-UK-transgender-murder-rate?msgid=73244850

The horrible irony is that a male cross-dresser, a masculine transman and a masculine detrans woman in a frock are all likely to be safe in The Gents - as long as no one realises that the latter are female. Meanwhile the false claims from trans activists and the likes of Jo Swinson, that lesbians are as likely as men to assault women, puts lesbians and detrans women at even greater risk of violence anywhere.

Finally, as far as children are concerned, contact with the Detrans Advocacy Network might prompt MPs to chase up the "ROGD Review" of GIDS promised in July 2019 under the previous Government:
www.gov.uk/government/news/government-set-to-begin-next-phase-of-gender-transition-research

"Government set to begin next phase of gender transition research
GEO will commission brand new research to explore the nature of adolescent gender identity and transitioning."

8 July 2019

"A tender for the next stage of research will be released in the coming weeks."

If that tender is/was out there somewhere, I have not been able to find any trace of it.

welcome opportunities to learn from "People with Experience"

Does this include women who have experience of being women and needing privacy and safety? Of how vulnerable it is to be a women? Of sex abuse survivors? Women who have been sexually assaulted or harrassed in public? Sportswomen who ‘try hard’ and have done so many times a week from a young age? Girls who are harassed and assaulted in school on a daily basis?

heightened vigilance

This.

Jo flipping Swinson…: I heard from people who are - um - women who might be women who look more masculine, women who might dress in a particular way, who have found, over the last months and years, with the way that this debate has been playing out, that they have suddenly, in a way that they haven't before, been challenged just for being in the women's loos.

Well this is what happens when women stop trusting that the people around them are women? Your hope may be that women just cast off the shackles of recognising secondary sex characteristics and just check pronouns for those they'll get undressed in front of: in the real world women are just learning fast to be hypervigilant and suspicious because that's what people do when they're made to feel invaded and unsafe and no one is listening to them .

It's yet another winning hearts and minds fail.

Well this is what happens when women stop trusting that the people around them are women?

Well quite.

I'll never understand how they think that this is an argument in favour of the trans ideology? Viewing everyone with suspicion? Instead of having security and confidence that you're in a female space.

MoleSmokes, that sounds like a pretty good plan for a campaign.

Is it something that we could organise here – letters from around the country to key people? The Women and Equalities Committee seems a good place to start campaigning. We need lesbian groups and women's groups to ask to talk to them.

Meanwhile, we need some sort of enquiry into how Stonewall helped to ensure that the Women and Equalities Committee were only lobbied by trans groups.

Birdsfoottrefoil quoting that point together with the one that follows it explains why there has been such a lack of interest in listening to the "People with Experience" you mention:

- welcome opportunities to learn from "People with Experience"
- value and work well together on cross-party initiatives when they have "common cause"

The "common cause" to date has been shaped by trans lobby groups in their interest, backed up by constant promotion of the fiction that trans people are "the most vulnerable group in society", ie. more vulnerable than any woman.

End result: a woman terrified out of her wits in a DV shelter by having to share a room with a bearded, burly transwoman is transformed into a vicious transphobic bigot - and it is perfectly reasonable to offer her the choice of occupying a single room without a door next to a fire escape or leaving.

(Lost the link to that news story if anyone remembers it.)

Will do later Moles.

I've had time to read the thread now. Excellent post Moles. And all of you.

My first thought was I'd be worried that labour would actively choose campaign against them as opposition and the fact that voting record isn't great would used against him to silence or ignore him.

I think the suggestions of liaising with other MPs, preferably cross-party, are excellent.

This is an absolute must as is tackling the issue of silencing women who wish to debate (and trans people, if he could watch Triggernometry; posie and rose, that would be useful. Both have excellent points re politics and policy) and academia; I hadn't realised that the university union was so heavily influenced by tras.

My huge concern is how the ideology is being read by teachers in schools. (Fed by organisations, charities and trans policies) We are so used to being a jack of all trades and spotting mental health conditions in order to refer to cahms, there's an increasing number of teachers and obviously charities making content that is washy around boundaries of safeguarding and science - ie that you can change sex.

My wish that this would be cross party and support women MPs being brave enough to actually come out and be able to debate this with confidence.

We need to communicate the issue of the extreme left doing damage to women through all this. Without seeming extreme right.

It’s all a bit the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Free speech being actively shut down by government funded universities would be a good place to go. It shouldn’t be controversial, but does do a good job of shining light on the biased picking and choosing of agendas in a place that should be unbiased.

Well this is a very interesting thread:

twitter.com/robjessel/status/1124369378160648195

Theresa Coffrey new women and equalities minister.

Didn't see this thread; linking R0 fashion. Clear that this still needs to be cross party.

The way Jess Philips is getting piles on shows how important it is for this to be cross party, and encompassing universities and education.

New Women and Equalities Minister? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3770651-New-Women-and-Equalities-Minister

www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1230151/Brexit-news-liberal-left-labour-EU

I always knew that this was at odds with what people thought and felt, not least from listening to thousands of people I meet in my constituency and across the country. The enormous gulf that has grown between the liberal elite and the public was perfectly illustrated in the recent election by the erstwhile leader of the Liberal Democrats bizarre claim that gender was purely a matter of personal choice, not biological fact. No wonder the Liberal surge failed to materialise and Miss Swinson lost her own seat.

Not the MP I was talking about in my original post but very similar.

If you want anything actively done in the next 5 years you will need to persuade Tory MPs of the merit of your argument.

It does not matter what the subject is.

Opposition parties are irrelevant when it comes to meaningful power.

It is worth trying to persuade opposition for a long term strategy too.

The bottom line is if you only want to engage with people who have views and opinions you agree with and you are not a Tory supporter you are going to be waiting a long time for action.

Do you have the time to wait for that on a serious political issue if you feel that passionately about it?

Be realistic.

Allies can disagree on other matters anyway. Real diversity springs from the freedom to agree and to disagree as well as to be alike and to be different.