Women and "the moral high ground"

[BeyondVotesForFlube]

Typed and then deleted some over-sharing info on social media earlier, and as I hit backspace it occurred to me - "the moral high ground" seems to have a tendency to be a bit sex-biased. It always IME seems to be the father in a former family who can over-share to his hearts content, while the mother is unable to because of "the moral high ground".

And I've just realised that I posted half of this post earlier and the second half disappeared!!

The rest was... (roughly)...

So often in RL I have come across both formerly abusive domestic relationships (and just the regular type of AWOL fathers), and in both situations it is always the man who gets to spin his version of events to a wider audience, while the women are encouraged to "take the high ground" and not complain or correct anyone. I can think of two friends off the top of my head now who are dealing with shitty ex-h's and traumatised children, while they maintain their dignified silence.

And it's passed on to communication with the DCs too, the encouragement that you mustnt be nasty about daddy - even if what you say is the truth. Heaven forbid you become the bitter ex wife, there is literally nothing worse /s. But then that leaves you with the dilemma of having to lie to them or at least fudge facts so they don't know what a shit he is.

So, it's a tough day in the beyond household as if you couldn't tell!!

Because women who complain are seen as vindictive and men are generally thought of as objective. Helen Lewis has a good term for it "The testicles of objectivity". No matter how correct a woman's analysis of a situation, we must never, ever, contradict men and make them look small, petty or vindictive. You become the bitter ex wife and he's the long suffering partner who was a saint to put up with your lunacy for so long.....

Too often women care too much that someone somewhere might one time call them a bitter ex. Too often men give no such fucks whatsoever.

Keep in mind that if a woman breaks up with a abusive man after a long relationship, well that's a sign she's a people-pleaser and he is a self-pleaser.

In my experience, normal women have the confidence to moan about their exes and not much care if someone doesn't like it.

Ah I forgot about the testicles of objectivity...

FGS - I'm not sure I'd use the word "normal" there 😬 more that those women are tired and worn down than they actually are in some way abnormal

Personally, I still worry that exH will cause something to happen to me if I complain. Even years later. He flits in and out of jobs so maintenance is already sporadic - and that's without intentionally trying to get at me.

I don’t see why you should lie to your DC to pretend daddy is wonderful if he’s a shit. You can calmly state facts and let the DC draw their own conclusions.
“We have to buy cheap food and no treats because daddy won’t pay the maintenance money”
“We can’t have a holiday this year because daddy prefers to use the money to take his girlfriend on holiday instead of you”, etc.
If they ask why daddy is doing this, say they will have to ask him that.
Let him explain his shitness to his DC directly - you don’t need to make excuses for him.
On the other hand if he’s being reasonable financially and is a decent dad, you do need to keep your own anger and betrayal away from the DC as much as possible, and let them have a good relationship with each of you.

I don’t see why you should lie to your DC to pretend daddy is wonderful if he’s a shit.

Agree with this. I started with “Of course Daddy loves you very much, he’s just very busy”, but as they got older I felt they needed to understand that:
(i) the way they were being treated was not what they deserved, and
(ii) this was not the way to treat their own children when the time came.

@Babdoc

You would really say this to your children: “ “We can’t have a holiday this year because daddy prefers to use the money to take his girlfriend on holiday instead of you”, etc”?

That seems to me to be putting adult worries into the minds of the children. I wouldn’t want my kids to be burdened by that.

Women feeling they have to take the moral high ground (rather than choosing to do so from a sense of personal integrity) is another symptom of feminine socialisation: Be Nice syndrome.

Women taking the moral high ground and men not bothering about it is like "Men fear that women will laugh at them. Women fear that men will kill them."

I would not all this taking the moral high ground. That's about talking to other adults. As far as that goes, on this particular subject I have not observed that men are given leeway while women aren't.

But talking to your kids, yeah, I don't think that it is a good idea to dis your ex to them, and it doesn't matter whether you are the mom or the dad. It's extremely stressful to children to hear this stuff about a parent they love, about a situation they can't control and will feel guilty about, to feel that they are unloved by that person. It puts them in a very difficult position that they don't have the skills or emotional armour to handle.

As kids get older they will see how things are and will judge it, and they will forgive or not as they see fit.

Personally, I still worry that exH will cause something to happen to me if I complain
@Beyond That sounds terrifying... has he ever made threats or given you reason to think he might harm you? If so, have you spoken to anyone in RL about this? Please seek advice on how to keep yourself and DCs safe!

@Goosefoot I fully agree with your last sentence, but in the interim it is really difficult how to gauge what to tell DCs. It’s one thing not to burden them unnecessarily with adult shit, but a whole different matter to shield XP if he (or she) is turning out to be a complete arse.

I'm still reading here, in amongst distracting myself with politics!

Don't worry rocking, I don't think he's going to hurt me physically. More attack my support network, my income or my perceived ability to parent my children.

Yeah goose, I realise I'm mixing two separate scenarios - how much to share with other adults and how much to share with children. Obviously the DC side includes wanting to protect them and cushion their hurt as much as I can, vs the adult side which is offloading for my own benefit. But I'm wondering about the similarity of both being a mental load of weighing up which to do, taken on disproportionately by women?

Babdoc - from your example scenario, either you know who I am or xH is a complete cliche in his exact behaviour!! (I laugh cause if I don't laugh I will cry!)

RockingAroundTheXMasTree

Yes, it's tricky, and the idea of actually shielding a ex who is being a shit, and a shit parent, really rankles.

I think though in most cases, it's probably best in the long term. Not to get all flowery or anything, but to try and keep certain facts to yourself.

I'm basing this on a few things - firstly just my own experience with divorsed parents, even though my mom tried to be very neutral, she didn't always manage, which I totally understand, but it made an already difficult situation worse for us, and it even impacted our relationship with the extended family on that side though they were helpful and reliable.

It's also been my observation that where kids are successfully sheltered from these things, they are generally grateful when they get older, they realise what went on and really appreciate that it wasn't part of their life or affecting their relationship with the other parent when they were young. And similarly, when a lot of that stuff is put on the kids, it sometimes really ends up backfiring and affects the relation with the reliable parent negatively.

None of that is really fair, but it's just not the kind of thing that can be managed in terms of fair.

Jelly I agree that it's a wider element of "be nice", but it's also sort of another distinct category - rather than be nice, don't talk about it at all. Back to "domestics" should remain in the home

As far as women taking this up disproportionately, yeah, with the kids I think that's a feature of women being more often the main parent, and also more likely to be somewhat economically dependent on the father.

@BeyondVotesForFlube
I'm still reading here, in amongst distracting myself with politics! With politics? I’m distracting myself from same, it’s all just too fucking depressing!
Glad to hear you’re not concerned for your physical safety, but what you describe still sounds shit. He doesn’t exactly sound like Superdad (assuming he’s like @Babdocs’ description) so do you really think he’d have a leg to stand on, trying to undermine your abilities as a parent? And your income and support network? Do you actually mean trying to destroy your work and social circle? WTAF? That sounds psychopathic! Get legal advise!

Very short (and possibly outing) synopsis for you rocking - I'm disabled, my income is all benefits-related so it's easy for someone to spitefully throw a false claim at me and get it temporarily frozen or worst case scenario eventually removed. Then due to my disability it could be claimed (obviously it could be fought as he left them in my care, but still...) that I'm incapable of looking after them - either that I'm not capable of physical care or that I'm emotionally abusive due to my asd. And re my social circle, I already have friends who in "not taking sides" have then gone on to feel sorry for the poor man who "had" to move away from his family.

I can't decide whether I find xH or the Tory-worry worse for my mh

That would be more than underhanded! And had to move away? That’s pretty normal for a split, one party leaving the mutual home... can’t understand why anyone would take pity on him for that, unless you wickedly removed him against his will? I’m now wondering if the split was maybe not amicable as I’d assumed?

Ive seen it both ways. Generally the person who takes the moral high ground is usually the more moral or honourable person to begin with.
One man I know let his wife call him a closet gay who had tricked her into marriage as grounds for divorce when the real reason was she had an affair with the parish priest so he refused to sleep with her after that. One woman I know had a husband with a gambling problem and when he filed for divorce stating she was abusive & controlling (she had been trying to help him break his addiction), she did not object because she just wanted him and his debts gone.

It was the culmination of a very long drawn out giving up from both of us. Though he sporadically "gave up" (with other women) right from the beginning, I just had a bit of a realisation and decided I'd had enough; Not entirely an entirely un-amicable (inamicable?) ending, but him actually moving out took a while and irked me a bit. My fault, naturally

Not entirely an entirely un-amicable (inamicable?) ending Had to read that numerous times! PMSL Sounds like hard work from all angles. Hope you’re doing ok with it all.
@PlanDeRaccordement Interesting point. And examples. I think I would tend to agree with you btw.

Spot on Goosefoot. My ex is a selfish useless man who lies about his income and is a crap parent. However, I agree you have to button it and not burden kids. They end up worrying they might be like the crap parent, and can even end up feeling sorry for them. You have to be as neutral as possible and bide your time. I trust as mine get older they will understand who was the more committed loving and reliable parent. And keeping your mouth shut, however maddening and unfair (and Boy, it is) means your kids won't end up resenting you or feeling guilty/sad for the absent parent... at least no more than they will already. I know my ex blames me for his ruptured relationship with the kids... Women are routinely blamed for alienating kids from fathers and it's often bollocks. But those women know exactly who is really the bad guy and kids usually work it out for themselves. I suggest to friends going through this that they offload to friends and family, but keep the kids out of it. They hate hearing it and it adds stress to their existing distress. Re. sexism I suspect this is less about women having to hold the moral high ground because they're women, and more that men leave their kids far more than women, and don't honour their financial responsibilities far more often, and put their needs before their children's way way more than women do. Fact.

Parents dodging their financial responsibilities towards their DCs really piss me off - especially when income really isn’t an issue!