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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prof Alice Roberts attacks Dr Emma Hilton on Twitter

148 replies

CaveMum · 11/12/2019 15:00

Another low blow from Prof Alice - attempting to dismiss Dr Hilton’s credentials as a signatory to a letter to the Times on biological sex.

Twitter thread here: twitter.com/fondofbeetles/status/1204763423013244929

OP posts:
TinklyLittleLaugh · 11/12/2019 19:12

Alice Roberts is an actual medical doctor though isn’t she? Not simply an archaeologist. She should know better.

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 11/12/2019 19:16

FondofBeetles! Hi. Good work (as always).

I want to post one of those aphorisms about how if you're pissing off idiots you know you're doing the right thing but I cba to think about the wording so Gin instead?

AutumnCrow · 11/12/2019 19:17

@FondOfBeetles How lovely to 'meet' you here.

Back soon to discuss all the excellent questions raised hopefully. I am about to get bloody drenched on the way from train to home.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 11/12/2019 19:18

I used to be a big fan, before I left the Twitterfridge, Dr Fond.

Good letter!

Quaffy · 11/12/2019 19:19

Brian Cox is married to Gia milinovich who is highly gender critical, and has himself been accused of being transphobic, so I rather suspect he would be fairly appalled by Alice Roberts crap conclusion-led pseudo science.

Melroses · 11/12/2019 19:30

crap conclusion-led pseudo science I like that term.

Melroses · 11/12/2019 19:34

I used to be called MaidOfStars, if anyone remembers me from that long ago.

Yes, definitely. Anyone else get the feeling that they are surrounded some of the most amazing minds on these boards? It is a special place.

Floisme · 11/12/2019 19:39

Lovely to see you back here FondOfBeetles. I remember MaidOfStars although I didn't realise it was you.
I though you handled things impeccably today.

nauticant · 11/12/2019 19:49

Professor Alice Roberts: the Professor Sally Hines of the archaeological world

merrymouse · 11/12/2019 19:52

From the University of Birmingham website

Alice’s role involves inspiring people to engage with the wide range of world-class research at the University of Birmingham, and ensuring a dialogue between our academics and the wider public.

So why does she talk cryptically about clownfish and suggest that sex is far too complicated for anyone to understand?

I'm genuinely interested in understanding her views, and I suspect some of her twitter posts are 'responses' to arguments that haven't been made.

However, while I accept that she might not want to hash everything out on social media, she could at least give an indication that she is prepared to talk to the people who wrote the letter. Apparently ensuring dialogue is her job.

YouSawThePlans · 11/12/2019 19:54

I remember MaidofStars - thanks for all you are doing Gin

AvocadoToes · 11/12/2019 20:14

A "point in a multidimensional space" just means a fixed-size collection of measurements. For example, height and weight make up a two-dimensional space and any particular pair of measurements, eg (1.81m, 82kg) is a point in that two-dimensional space. If you add more measurements, you get a higher-dimensional space. So (height, weight, waist, inside leg, shoe size) is a five-dimensional space, and any particular set of those measurements is a point in that five-dimensional space.

This abstract structure does introduce lots of interesting and useful mathematics, but in this case it seems to be used just to obfuscate and make simple ideas sound more impressive.

What's more, the statement is wrong - individuals would be points in the multidimensional space, but sex (being a collection of actual and hypothetical individuals) would be a region of that space, not a point.

BarbaraStrozzi · 11/12/2019 20:15

Hi FondOfBeetles (I remember you too). Love your writing.

Communicating science can be hard (I've struggled with explaining general relativity - the apple on a rubber sheet analogy will only get you so far...). And I find what geneticists do mind blowing!

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try - we owe it to people collectively to help them understand what we do because it matters. It matters because of their everyday lives (helping a pregnant woman understand screening statistics, helping a cancer patient make an informed decision between chemo versus radiotherapy), it matters because sometimes momentously important political decisions hinge on it (climate science), it matters just because the world is fascinating and beautiful and we want to share that beauty (cosmology, relativity).

In my experience, if you can't make a half way decent job of explaining your bit of science to a lay person, that usually means you don't understand it yourself. (In my research group, as part of our cpd we take it in turns to give seminars on important topics in our field. The only rule of the game is you don't get to choose a topic on which you're an expert. And you then have to deliver them in the knowledge that there is at least one world expert in the field in your audience. Doesn't half focus the mind.)

CaveMum · 11/12/2019 20:22

OMG, I’m now fangirling because @FondOfBeetles has posted on my thread 😁😁😁😁

You do amazing work and are a valuable source of rational and sensible facts. I had hoped to come and see you and others at the talk in Cambridge last week as I’m only down the road but my childcare fell through.

OP posts:
hipsterfun · 11/12/2019 20:37

I used to be called MaidOfStars, if anyone remembers me from that long ago.

I do Smile Glad you’re still here.

Anyone else get the feeling that they are surrounded some of the most amazing minds on these boards?

Oh, yes. And any one of them far better suited to Alice’s job than poor old Alice.

nauticant · 11/12/2019 20:39

Compare and contrast:

twitter.com/ChiefBrody19/status/1204825969883783168

Doyoumind · 11/12/2019 20:46

I see Alice has her Twitter on lockdown again. Every single time. She has no credibility whatsoever.

merrymouse · 11/12/2019 20:48

twitter.com/ExcelPope/status/1204851132184616960

I'd love Alice Roberts to demonstrate that this isn't true.

BarbaraStrozzi · 11/12/2019 20:52

merry that is genius.

BarbaraStrozzi · 11/12/2019 20:53

Hypothesis testing = putting on twitter to see how many retweets you get. Xmas GrinXmas GrinXmas Grin

merrymouse · 11/12/2019 20:58

I can't claim any credit for it - I'm not secretly ExcelPope!

SomeDyke · 11/12/2019 21:33

Let's suppose we were a bunch of alien scientists studying humans. We might chose to measure a whole bunch of stuff for each human, and when we do that (plotting the points in a nice multidimensional space, one point per person), we might discover that the points tend to look like two clouds. If we want to try and assign points to cloud1 or cloud2, we might find that some fancy combination of the things we have measured enables us to divide people up into 2 clouds. But that for any single thing we have measured, there is always quite a bit of overlap between the clouds.

Until one of the smarter scientists who was out to lunch says -- look at the way little humans are produced. Then we would suddenly find that things have become immensely simpler. We have essentially a binary classification, with zero overlap. And you don't have to measure a whole bunch of stuff to decide what type of human you have. Okay, says the first bunch who have spent a lot of time doing pretty pictures based on their huge multidimensional space and as many things as they could think of measuring, but there is a lot of correlation between your binary little-human-maker classification and what we have measured. Yes, says the scientist just back from lunch, but that changes over time and varies between different groups of humans. It seems to be a socially-agreed signalling mechanism about their little-human-maker status (useful since they keep covering up their little-human-making apparatus, because of the rain and wind or likelihood of mechanical damage I presume!), but like other socially-agreed mechanisms, can be subverted. Don't confuse the substance with the signal!

She then goes off to continue reading Mumsnet, which she has recently discovered -- compared to the gichy-michy on many other human modes of communication, its a breath of sanity. Although she is still wondering what a garibaldi tastes like...........

Gulsink · 11/12/2019 21:48

I stopped listening to anything Dr Alice Roberts said after watching her being a bit of a stubborn bell-end on a program about gender stereotypes.

LangCleg · 11/12/2019 21:50

Oh! Yes, of course some of us remember you, I'm pretty sure your name has come up on 'people we miss' type of threads - delighted you're back, and thank you so much for being so brilliant on Twitter.

What she said!

BarbaraStrozzi · 11/12/2019 21:53

SomeDyke I love your sci fi story. Specially the "hiding their little-human-making apparatus to protect it from weather/mechanical damage..."