Mrs Gove/Sarah Vine in the Daily Fail

[Gingernaut]

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7778611/SARAH-VINE-Jo-Swinson-woman-betraying-women-swapping-principles-populism.html

I am so sorry for the Fail link.

She's entitled to be known as Sarah Vine. However it's important to remember who she's married to, given the election's tomorrow and her thrashing of one of her husband's political opponents.

I'm not really arsed about her opinion on gender.

FWIW, I am a man. I first came across the "trans rights" arguments through Jordan Peterson arguing against pronouns, then came onto Mumsnet (for other reasons) and decided I agreed with the arguments regarding single-sex spaces and trans-women in sports - there are two sexes, it's mental to suggest otherwise, and women need sex-segregated spaces. Happy to see men in dresses, make-up, fill your boots chap. You're still a bloke in a dress, but good for you.

My problem is that it doesn't seem particularly "decent" for the spouse of a politician to use their column in the most popular newspaper in the country to launch specific attacks against their partner's political enemies (whether I agree with their arguments or not).

Also, FWIW, I don't insist on calling her "Mrs Gove", but I think that it is a useful shorthand for highlighting to people who may not know that this is not your standard objective (as much as they can be) journalist, but someone with some serious skin in the game.

If Gove himself had written the article, I wouldn't have a problem, because it would have been clearly noted as a party political article.

Sarah Vine really, really wants to live at 10 Downing St

Does she? From what I’ve read in her columns over the last decade, she’s not keen on the intrusion of family life that comes with PM territory.

She's bright, articulate, ambitious, and gives zero fucks. Though, she'll have to give the occasional one to Michael Gove, I guess. Surely that's worth a suite or two in Buckingham Palace?

What a shitty thing to say. Fine, you’re not attracted to Michael Gove. But why do you assume she’s fucking Michael Gove for a nice place at the Palace? Your comment has reduced her, as a woman, them as a couple/partnership, and their family.

My problem is that it doesn't seem particularly "decent" for the spouse of a politician to use their column in the most popular newspaper in the country to launch specific attacks against their partner's political enemies (whether I agree with their arguments or not)

That is ridiculous. Sarah Vine is a journalist- pick apart what she said in the article. The suggestion that she should not write it because of who her husband is simply telling her to shut up- that she isn't entitled to an opinion. It isn't the first time she has written on this subject.

Also, FWIW, I don't insist on calling her "Mrs Gove", but I think that it is a useful shorthand for highlighting to people who may not know that this is not your standard objective (as much as they can be) journalist, but someone with some serious skin in the game

Serious skin in what game? Pointing out the idiocies of Lib Dem policy. They don't stop being idiotic just because it is the spouse of a Tory MP who is pointing it out.

What a shitty thing to say. Fine, you’re not attracted to Michael Gove. But why do you assume she’s fucking Michael Gove for a nice place at the Palace? Your comment has reduced her, as a woman, them as a couple/partnership, and their family

I completely agree. Really nasty comment.

If Gove himself had written the article, I wouldn't have a problem, because it would have been clearly noted as a party political article

But it isn't a party political piece. It was an article by a woman expressing concern at the implications of this Lib Dem policy on all women- Tory, Labour and Communist women.

Fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree. FWIW, I had a family member who was candidate in a Presidential election abroad, and the golden rule we all had was to never, ever, denigrate their opponents in a public forum. They were the politician, that was their domain and all criticism would come from them and them alone. We, as family, were cheerleaders and representatives for his policies, and that was all.

It seemed to me, and still seems, to be a much healthier, more positive way of conducting one's business.

"Denigrate their opponents"??

What are you on about? The article does not denigrate Swinson- it is quite clearly the party policy which is being criticised.

The comment about the more people see Swinson the less they like her is referring to the fact Swinson's ratings with the public were high at the beginning of the campaign and have declined after every public appearance.

Sorry, are the Lib Dems not opponents of the Tories ? Or Labour in the section below ?

It would seem that the way for Vine to pursue her journalist career would be either never to have married Gove or to self-censor because she did.

Sorry, are the Lib Dems not opponents of the Tories ? Or Labour in the section below?

Of course the Lib Dems are opponents of Tory and Labour. All 3 are opponents of each other. What is your point?

Sarah Vine did not denigrate Swinson as a person- Vine is quite clearly referring to policy.

Vine has criticised a bloody ridiculous policy just this week highlighted by Swinson herself being ridiculous in more than one interview. It's not like Vine made up some fake news like Swinson Ate My Hamster, is it? Or like she dredged about something that happened two years ago. The article is topical, timely and sensible.

What's she supposed to do, write about nail polish until after the election? Then shrug her shoulders and say hey-ho shame nobody noticed Swinson rates men higher than women.

If she were putting all the parties policies through the wringer, you may have a point.

If there were an obvious disclaimer of the conflict of interest ("Sarah Vine is the wife of the Conservative minister, Michael Gove") at the top or bottom of the article, then I still think she wouldn't be behaving properly in attacking the LDs and Labour in a national newspaper, but at least the disclaimer would give every reader a better idea of the background and able to judge the merits in regards to her biases.

A quick look through the headers of her previous articles appears to show regular attacks on various Labour figures - Dawn Butler and Corbyn -, with precious little mention of any Tories.

Sure, she might be entitled to it, but I don't think it's decent behaviour.

Why doesn't she write about Tory policies for women ? If she is going to use her column to cheerlead for the Tories, then at least be positive about it, rather than using it to savage opponents, with no obvious link to the Tory party (save for those who already know the identity of her husband).

Perhaps "denigrate" means specifically individuals. I meant it in a sense of "doing down" your opponents, at an individual or party level.

She definitely denigrated the LD and Labour policies.

Believe or not it’s pretty common for women to marry men whose views they agree with, and vice versa. Not at all surprising that she shares similar political views to her husband, he may well have pinched her views, very bill & Hillary ; )

It’s completely relevant who she’s married to within the context, so say wife of, not Mrs g. Chances are on this issue it’s way more likely that Gove is learning from her, not using her to influence her readers to his views. Even if he was all media is highly biased, that’s hardly news.

Ignoring the little outbreak of misogyny in the comments, this article is a good thing because it will be read by people who may not otherwise have been aware of these issues. If it's in any way relevant who Vine is married to it's in that he may be more willing to listen to her than to randoms, and may be able to influence Tory policy. It seems very unlikely that Gove is telling Vine what to write or that he's the reason she thinks these or any other things - she'll have married a conservative because she herself has conservative views rather than having conservative views because her husband tells her to.

I don't think the Mrs Gove business is that important, no one is suggesting she ought to really go by that, or does go by it. I 've even seen a similar thing with men from time to time when someone wanted to emphasise a personal connection, I've seen J-Z called Mr Beyonce for example Though in that case I think the implication was that he was less important than she.
I don't think all this getting very caught up in names, so even a sort of colloquial comment that isn't very serious becomes a big deal, is a good thing. Our name really doesn't sum up what or who we are, much less make us who we are.

I can see why people might think the spouse of someone in politics has a sort of bias, in terms of being a journalist. I don't know that it matters in an opinion column so much, but for example if you were asking someone to cover politics stories it might present a conflict of interest of sorts.

You could also ask why the spouse gets that opportunity to have that platform when other people don't. Now here we are talking about someone with a completely separate writing career, and we all know that.

But that looks a bit different when you are talking about a the spouse of a minor political figure, compared to one who has real power and a say in government. It raises questions as to whether if that journalist is acting as a sort of mouthpiece to the government, and those questions are going to be there whether or not that is the case.

She didn’t write it.

(But if it’s clear she did the deed. . .)

She wrote it, but she shouldn’t have. (It’s political, sexual, masculine, feminist.)
She wrote it, but look what she wrote about. (The bedroom, the kitchen, her family. Other women!)
She wrote it, but she wrote only one of it. (“Jane Eyre. Poor dear, that’s all she ever. . .”)
She wrote it, but she isn’t really an artist, and it isn’t really art. (It’s a thriller, a romance, a children’s book. It’s sci fi!)
She wrote it, but she had help. (Robert Browning. Branwell Bronte. Her own “masculine side.”)
She wrote it, but she’s an anomaly. (Woolf. With Leonard’s help....)
She wrote it BUT. . . 

Joanna Russ in a short, useful book from 1983, How to Suppress Women’s Writing

@VMisaMarshmallow I wholeheartedly agree with you. It is a separate women-only room for breastfeeding that I would welcome. I wouldn't want to make thw entire parenting suite women-only.

Ahh...am I getting it right.

Vine is GC and write a good article criticising LD policy on self ID. This is because she is married to a senior Tory politician. Several posters on here have criticised LD policy on self-ID. Is one Mrs Gove? If so who? And who are the others married to?

FWIW I have Fekko down as Mrs Rees-Mogg. (Not least because both have been quiet of late. I hope Fekko has not fallen foul of either MN mods or Tory campaign managers.)

I myself identify as Mrs Tobias Ellwood. He doesn't get a say in the matter

Creep that’s brilliant, I read a lot but I’ve never came across that book.

Oddly when I was reading I was thinking Courtney Love. She’s always denigrated as a crappy fake musician, dare to say you like some of her music and suddenly ‘oh that’s the album Kurt wrote’ ..... I’m a huge Cobain fan but do people not realise how ridiculous they sound claiming that a spouse influencing the other is new or unusual, doesn’t make it any less her work or any less good. Does anyone rip f Scott to pieces for how much he copied Zelda’s style and ideas, then put his work first always so her book came out later? Does anyone pull apart Ted Hughes for his much less impassioned versions of the same poems? Does anyone moan that Laurie Anderson very obviously influenced Lou Reeds musical style once they were together? Personally we prefer his early stuff and while Laurie is an incredible women and artist in her own right her music isn’t to my taste, but I don’t ever hear claims she wrote his work. But when it’s Love is assumed she’s so stupid and talentless Cobain must have wrote the lot. Except everything of hers that’s considered garbage, then that belongs to her only.

I will look up that book, thanks!

Oddly when I was reading I was thinking Courtney Love. She’s always denigrated as a crappy fake musician, dare to say you like some of her music and suddenly ‘oh that’s the album Kurt wrote’

The response should be "and which of his songs did she help write?". Creative men have been either collaborating with or outright stealing from and passing off as their own the work of their female partners since forever. Not that I'm denigrating Cobain, who was definitely talented, but the people who say this shit clearly don't understand how either the creative process or functional relationships work. Couples influence each other, but you don't see people outright accusing men of being mouthpieces for their female partners with anything like the same frequency as you see it the other way around.

Sometimes it's that old internalized misogyny rearing its head, sometimes it's an "acceptable" way to take a swing at a woman you don't like, and sometimes it's a man talking and it's just plain misogyny, which he will get huffy about when it's pointed out.