Conflicted about LibDems and Thursday

[crosstalk]

I was somewhat surprised to find they'd ditched a candidate because she insisted that sex rather than gender was an issue. I questioned this and got (diced down) this response from the party

"We are further concerned at the tone of a misleading campaign run across the media over the past couple of years which unfairly conflates issues. It seeks to present trans people as a threat to women but does so without evidence. We support the rights of all women to justice, dignity, and equality.

Trans rights are not in opposition to women’s rights, and trans women have used single sex facilities for decades without a problem. Behaviour in those spaces is covered by public order offences, meaning that any individual causing concern in those spaces can be removed."

Before Thursday I'd like to get back to them before casting a vote.

They've been caught out. In time.

Are they repeating the words/advice of Belcher?
What a mess. What dreadful guidance.

Listening to HB over all of the women out there who are at risk of losing our rights. The arrogance that they could just push this through and nobody would care because women don't matter.

Does anybody know of a thread about Posie Parker and Belcher at the hustings?

Nope i agree with you flo, and the sentiment

Its been mentioned on many threads On other boards where people are saying why they can’t vote LD

It just pisses me off when people make a brand new comment...and then have a go cos no one has mentioned it

So no ‘oh while we are in the subject what about the whole democratic thing???? Eh eh, what do you think? Would be interested in your comments????’ Etc

Nope straight in with the Having a pop

Fucks me right off...fucking threads are full of it at the moment.

Poster A ...i think this policy is good

Poster B OH SO YOU ARE HAPPY WITH CHILDREN DYING AND BUILDINGS FALLING DOWN AND THE ANTI CHRIST RETURNING

Poster A ......😳

I’m chill now....and maybe the original poster didn’t mean it like that

Time lady, exactly.

What on earth was the campaign manager doing, allowing a controversial flagship policy into the manifesto when even the party leader is unable to form a cohesive argument to defend it.

Basic politics, I would have thought. If in doubt say nothing.

Up until recently, noone was questioning self ID though needmoresleep because the #nodebate #transphobia thing was working

So the Lib Dems scribble down some bullshit 'be nice' policy without any thought as to the consequences.

The party's mainly earnest white middle class blokes who think there's no need for feminism because everything's equal now. No concept of what it actually means to be a woman.
They think they've fulfilled their obligation to the ladies by electing Jo as leader, aren't they nice?

Having said that, I'm still voting for them. Ours is a tory/LD marginal and i don't think another tory mp is going to help anyone.

I think there's enough opposition to self id within the party itself that it won't happen, or there will be if we can get through their 'be nice' default reaction and actually demonstrate the real-world effects of this policy.

TheHeathenOfSuburbia What makes you think there is enough opposition to self ID within the LibDems? I certainly haven’t seen any.

I worry that the 'be nice' mob are busy expelling/silencing those with alternate views, thus reducing the scope for critical reflection and debate.

Like the greens. I would love to vote green, as I believe that the environment is by some distance the biggest issue. However after following the Aimee Challenor thing (she was standing as deputy leader ffs, without any obvious interest in environmental issues) and the way some sensible sounding people were hounded out, I cannot.

The LibDem chair is trans. (Why always MtF?) And they are well represented on Stonewall's transadvisory committee. I cant see their approach changing anytime soon.

Lordamighty I'm a LD member, have campaigned in the past but couldn't bring myself to this time, i can't stand on a doorstep and pretend TWAW.
There are dissenters within the party that have been subject to the usual shouting down but are hanging on in there.

The majority of the ordinary members haven't really heard of the policy, or if they have, are being mollified with 'Be Nice' / 'This Never Happens', but as we've seen on here that's not a view that can stand up to much contact with facts. I have hope.

TheHeathenOfSuburbia thanks for the explanation. They will be in 3rd place in my constituency so I am not concerned about them winning here. Unfortunately I do think they are relying on getting this through by stealth & don’t trust them for that reason.

I feel very strongly about Brexit and would have voted LibDem had it not been for their policy on the GRA. Sadly, I feel I have been left with no option but to spoil my vote. This morning there were some LibDems handing out leaflets at my local station so I stopped to let them know that I would have voted for them but don't feel able to due to their GRA policy - the man I talked to simply looked at me and did not say one word, no engagement, no response, nothing at all he just looked at me until I went away I have no idea what he was trying to achieve but after that I know I have done the right thing to spoil my ballot (and before anyone asks I was super polite, in fact I was cross with myself for including the word "sorry" three times).

If you're going to vote for the LibDems you might as well vote Tory because that's what they'll deliver. If you thought the Coalition austerity government was bad...

The majority of the ordinary members haven't really heard of the policy, or if they have, are being mollified with 'Be Nice' / 'This Never Happens', but as we've seen on here that's not a view that can stand up to much contact with facts. I have hope.

The problem with that is that the Lib Dems have promoted the idea that they are the sensible party in the middle that looks at all the information and comes to a sensible conclusion. They are supposed to be on top of the facts.

However, it's pretty clear that Jo Swinson isn't just trying to find a pragmatic solution to help trans people - she is so tied into TRA ideology that she can't even bring herself to recognise the existence or consequences of biological sex.

I’m a stance remainer but feel that the potential GRA reforms and this push back against female’s rights is a bigger threat to women/children than Brexit is. Having the benefits of being part of Europe is if no use if women and children are going to be vulnerable to those undesirables who are hiding under the coat tails of genuine Transsexuals in order to strip females of their rights to safety, dignity and privacy.

What makes you think there is enough opposition to self ID within the LibDems? I certainly haven’t seen any.

I think there are many ordinary members still who haven't heard of it or read it, tucked away as it is on page umpteen of the manifesto in a locked cupboard defended by leopards, and hedged round with stuff about protecting churches and mosques from terror attacks.

Look. The Lib Dem’s aren’t going to be in power. And even if they have any sway in a coalition they really won’t be bringing anything about trans rights into the mix. In seats where it’s Tory/ LD, you can vote LD to keep the Tories out and protect the safety of millions of people, or you can vote differently because you don’t like their stand on trans rights and make it more likely that the Tories get enough of a majority to shaft everyone. It’s that simple.

On the democracy issue - I do not agree with revoking Article 50 as a standalone Brexit solution as it is not the solution to the Brexit problem.

However, that alone would not stop me from voting for the LibDems under the current circumstances (that is as a party with a chance to get less than 10% of the seats). I appreciate the value of more divergent positions in small parties which may hold the balance of power in a hung parliament. In coalition it should allow parties to reach more palatable compromise positions that more voters can accept. (Not that the LibDems have a good track record on that.)

In a LibDem-Conservative marginal I would still consider voting for them, because I consider a Conservative majority government under Johnson a worse evil than holding my nose and voting LibDem. In my opinion we can fight the proposed reforms of the GRA whoever wins, but I cannot see how we could fight the policies a Johnson majority government will inflict on us.

Still undecided?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3765884-Anyone-watching-GMB

Absolute disgrace that this party refuses to acknowledge women.

Let's be honest, our tendency as women to consider the rights of everyone else is the reason it's got to this stage. Parties know they can treat us badly and we'll still vote for them because we're not exclusively self interested.

Well Lib Dems have shown themselves to be decidedly undemocratic and completely anti-women not only through the GRA reform and spousal veto but also through their complete unwillingness to listen to concerns raised by their female members. It'd be a dark day before I voted for them again.

I am in a Lib Dem seat with Tories very close behind. My parents and lovely people locally putting in a lot of effort on their behalf. But their stance on this issue is so against everything I believe in. What the hell do I do tomorrow? Labour no chance here.

I should add that I am not in a position to actually have to consider voting LibDem if I wanted to oppose a Conservative candidate. So my position is different from those of us who are faced with that choice. I am seriously considering spoiling my ballot for Scottish Parliament elections though.

Labour also intend to reform the GRA. John McDonnell said so on his web chat on here a few days ago.

In a LibDem-Conservative marginal I would still consider voting for them, because I consider a Conservative majority government under Johnson a worse evil than holding my nose and voting LibDem. In my opinion we can fight the proposed reforms of the GRA whoever wins, but I cannot see how we could fight the policies a Johnson majority government will inflict on us.

I agree with this. And now that we are finally seeing debate about this, it's only a matter of time before everyone realises that allowing any male to self-declare himself a woman is lunacy.

I hope I'm not being unrealistically optimistic there.

I've written to Jo Swinson today to express my disgust at her TWAW nonsense. I'm in a LD/Tory marginal. We've been LD in the past for many many years so I'm hoping we'll go back to get rid of our Tory twat. It's a tactical vote and I've told her I'm holding my nose to do so and that she has alienated a great number of actual women.
Brexit is the most important issue for me right now. We need to get that as sorted as possible and then be relentless in tackling women's rights and the trans nonsense. As the only remain party they are my only choice. If it wasn't for brexit I might spoil my ballot although unlikely as I feel it too important to vote. Rock and a hard place.

I am dreading tomorrow. So much is at stake.

I will be voting Tory, so clearly I am not as staunch a remainer as some on here.

My personal view is that there are enough Tory MPs who are sensible enough (for me) on Brexit who would, if it came down to it, cross the floor to try to avoid a no deal. My own Tory MP has said that she will oppose a no deal in any circumstances - I believe her. I would be happy to have a people's vote, but I am also ok with leaving with a sensible deal, not no deal. I don't like the idea of revocation of article 50 without a referendum and I don't understand what the LD policy would be if there was a second referendum (would it be Boris' deal or in and if leave won, what then?). But I recognise that others feel far more strongly about this issue.

I do feel very strongly that there are not sufficient LD MPs (including my own candidate who does not understand the issue at all, as he is an affiliate of the People's Vote campaign and really only cares about Brexit) who would absolutely refuse to vote in favour of self ID. It is in the manifesto, so there would be little reason to and the Salisbury convention would mean that it would get no second or third reading in the HoL.

So I feel I have no choice but to vote Tory in my circumstances and then campaign on austerity and Brexit behind the scenes based on my own strength of feelings. I recognise that for others the balance will be totally different.

And obviously I don't think that the LDs will get a majority, but I do think there is a possibility of a coalition with Labour in which there could be a sufficient majority for self Id based on the fact that it is a policy in both manifestos.