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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sheilagh Fogarty LBC now with Sara Ditum

26 replies

ginandbearit · 09/12/2019 14:40

Discussing Jo Swinson 'car crash' interview

OP posts:
MockersFactCheckMN · 09/12/2019 14:44

The Fog's good. Another non-Oxbridge journo who realised she was never getting any of the plum roles for that reason.

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 09/12/2019 14:46

She's gone a bit 'true trans' by the sound of it.

Murraygoldberg · 09/12/2019 14:48

Great interview, Tom Swarbrick was also quite good last night. Thank you LBC and well done Sara getting Karen Wight in twice

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 09/12/2019 14:50

Sarah I mean. Or maybe I'm being mean and we all just have to make sure we genuflect to the sign that says 'no one is suggesting any transpeople would ever do anything bad ever' before we speak in public. Hmm

Joisanofthedales · 09/12/2019 14:50

It was good but why does nobody make the point that over 80% of transwomen keep their penis, do not take hormones and whose surgery (if they have any) consists of breast implants and feminization.
I think it's extremely relevant to these discussions

midcenturylegs · 09/12/2019 14:51

I only caught the tail end of this but it was very very good. Fogarty said something along the lines of "We need to talk about this more and more after the election (dry laugh) and make sure we engage with a lot of different people. Perhaps even Jo Swinson (but she may want to do some reading)."

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 09/12/2019 14:53

She's gone a bit 'true trans' by the sound of it.

But isn't that just because most people are not completely batshit crazy, and reasonably assume that trans is what it used to mean - (mostly) men who wanted live a quiet life in their women's clothing and just got on with that.

Not the aggressively booming, baseball bat wielding thugs demanding they are true ladies and we have to all agree or else.

That new reality sounds so mental that even when people hear it they think it's exaggerated nonsense.

midcenturylegs · 09/12/2019 14:57

Jois I agree - but when it comes to playing sports (elite or not, girls have to start at the bottom so why single out elite?), whether or not the MTF transition has involved full medical surgery is not the whole picture. I would also like though for the questions around transwomen winning women's awards, taking the 1:1 M:F spaces on boards etc (NY Democrats).

Forgive me for being dim, what does 'true trans' mean?

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 09/12/2019 14:59

I'm not sure the distinction helps us. It implies that there may be men we wouldn't mind having in our changing rooms. And that is not my stance.

I am willing to accept it may move the discussion forward temporarily.

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 09/12/2019 15:03

Forgive me for being dim, what does 'true trans' mean

It's the belief that some/all transsexuals (usually defined as man who have had complete genital surgery or who 'pass') can be allowed into the category of 'woman' - sometimes on a kind of honorific level.

Melroses · 09/12/2019 15:06

I enjoyed that Smile

Melroses · 09/12/2019 15:08

www.globalplayer.com/

You can listen back free for 7 days - it is at 14.30.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 09/12/2019 15:08

Sarah’s always been a bit tru-trans to be fair

I have a lot of respect for her, but that position prioritises being nice over being fair to women so I cannot agree with it

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 09/12/2019 15:13

that position prioritises being nice over being fair to women so I cannot agree with it

Agreed. It also leave a doubt about where the boundary is when we have a perfectly excellent sex-based boundary we can all agree on.

midcenturylegs · 09/12/2019 15:33

It also leave a doubt about where the boundary is when we have a perfectly excellent sex-based boundary we can all agree on.

Yep. Very clear lines need to be drawn up so there is no ambiguity.
It's interesting though, I think because I know one fairly well known old school transsexual (who is clear that she knows she is not a woman) and respect her pronouns - perhaps I am a little true-trans

Joisanofthedales · 09/12/2019 15:41

mid you are right, having a penis is not the only issue in sport as male puberty is very important.
I would also support the poster who is uncomfortable with transwomen who have had their penis removed being in womens spaces. Every woman must agree to that and it won't ever happen.
I think that mentioning penis - having, makes it clear why women have a fear of these men in their spaces, to the general public who have not kept up with the new transgender umbrella.

LangCleg · 09/12/2019 15:53

I'm not sure the distinction helps us. It implies that there may be men we wouldn't mind having in our changing rooms. And that is not my stance.

Mine either.

Michelleoftheresistance · 09/12/2019 15:59

It also leave a doubt about where the boundary is when we have a perfectly excellent sex-based boundary we can all agree on.

This. I think there are stages of waking up to this for female people as you truly begin to explore the implications, and this represents a point on the journey. I'd been on FWR for some time before I realised, from patient explanation, why this kindness based approach to the original people the GRCs were designed for can no longer work. After all, who'd want to send poor little Jazz Jennings or someone as vulnerable as them to any male facility?

In part it's the natural protectiveness of a decent person who understands vulnerability. Women often have that in spades. They also understand exactly what the dangers from males are. Female socialisation is different to male socialisation: this is why gender stereotypes harm females.

However it has been proved beyond all doubt now that if any biological male is permitted to identify as a woman then it is impossible to gatekeep where the line is drawn. Males will force that as far as it will go, which is why we've reached the point of expecting that bearded, fully intact male presenting males can stroll into any female facility, say the magic words and no one will utter a peep. And males are actively exploiting this within the safety of the law, for example Karen White (who is as much a TW as anyone else is.)

If it's one, it's all. It's the end of any gatekeeping, female spaces are owned by any or all males. As we've seen, in effect, when it comes to practical implementation most places have surrendered and just made female spaces unisex. This is a massive disadvantage and inequality for females.

Also while many women feel more comfortable with fully transitioned transsexual people, after long discussion here including with transsexual MNetters, it became apparent that underneath this is still a belief that the primary judge of who owns spaces and who will set the boundaries is the person born male. The underlying entitlement and sexism is impossible to avoid. Connected to this: while many women may be able to use female spaces under these conditions, some women won't . That has to be the line. If any female person has lost all provision in order to give a male person additional choice and facilities to their existing provision, something has gone desperately wrong.

And there are circumstances and situations in which a significant number of female people can never be comfortable or able to use spaces that males are present in, regardless of the degree of cosmetic surgery, regardless of the gatekeeping, regardless of that male's chosen identity. That ends it. Those females cannot be excluded from any space or access to services to give males wider choice and entitlement. I bang on and on about this because it appals me that this agenda sees nothing wrong with this. If you have the naivety and privilege in your life that you have never known a female person who may be beaten up by the male in her life for traducing cultural boundaries, (and has in reality no access to equal justice, because of those boundaries and an inability to escape), or a mother desperately planning with the help of MN to disappear without warning from the man who tried to kill her last night, somehow taking three small children with her with only the clothes they stand up in, or a survivor of rape, or a female living with dementia or Autism... you don't realise the devastation you are wreaking on other females when you say 'But I don't mind....'

And then the final stage, the final step, is to suddenly realise - hang on a minute, why aren't people born female permitted to have a boundary about their biological reality, and have spaces male born don't feel entitled to take away from them? And an identity male born people don't feel entitled to re define over their heads to better suit male born people? And the right to meet, or associate, or have a sexuality or get undressed anywhere at all apart from any male person who insists on being present?

And then you reach the point of realising that for some people, kindness is just another word for oppression.

Joisanofthedales · 09/12/2019 16:26

Wow Michelle another awesome post.

midcenturylegs · 09/12/2019 16:37

Michelle - thank you for this.. you may have described my journey very aptly.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 09/12/2019 16:57

That's a brilliant post, Michelle. Star

KatvonHostileExtremist · 09/12/2019 17:14

www.globalplayer.com/catchup/lbc/uk/b8FPhBM/

Thank you Melrose
I bloody love shelagh Fogarty. And Sarah D too.

And jo s thank you so much for throwing this into the sunlight, whilst simultaneously trying to throw us under a bus.

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 09/12/2019 17:35

I know one fairly well known old school transsexual (who is clear that she knows she is not a woman) and respect her pronouns - perhaps I am a little true-trans

Meh. I have Christian friends I try not to say 'Jesus!' in front of when I stub my toe. It's just politeness.

You might be though. It's something of a spectrum. Unlike sex, which isn't Wink

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 09/12/2019 18:28

I'm not sure the distinction helps us. It implies that there may be men we wouldn't mind having in our changing rooms. And that is not my stance.

Nor mine. I get why some people make the distinction between transsexuals and transvestites but I don't agree with it myself, it has what has led us to the current mess. We need to go back to sex, as determined at conception and observed at birth, being the divider.

OhHolyJesus · 09/12/2019 18:45

Just catching up and it was brilliant but CS is not a woman with DSD.

Is there some kind of media embargo on saying what Semenya is? I'm certain that Sharon Davies made it perfectly clear on Hard Talk some months ago.

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