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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Eva Wiseman discussing the "rough sex" defence

12 replies

justcly · 09/12/2019 06:29

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/dec/08/rough-sex-and-rough-justice-we-need-a-greater-understanding-of-consent

Good that it is being discussed, but I feel that in her targeting porn, she has kind of let off the hook the men that do this.

OP posts:
justcly · 09/12/2019 06:30

Apologies, I have no clue how to post a clicky link.

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NonnyMouse1337 · 09/12/2019 06:37

Here you go.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/dec/08/rough-sex-and-rough-justice-we-need-a-greater-understanding-of-consent

You place hyperlinks between two sets of square brackets i.e. ones that look like [ [ link ] ] But without the spaces between them.

TheTinselrati · 09/12/2019 11:43

I agree with her that porn is probabaly impossible to abloish.

But then she seems to be saying that "we" need to make porn nicer - and that is the solution to women being subjected to violent sex? We should all embrace porn and "make it nicer and more fun". Nicer and more fun for whom?

If we can't abolosh it (and I wishe we could) I'd prefer we take more of an anti-smoking approach to porn - make it socilaly unacceptable, rather than front and centered in society.

Thelnebriati · 09/12/2019 12:03

Abuse always escalates.
Porn always escalates.
Prostitution always escalates.

Ergo, porn and prostitution are types of abuse, not forms of free speech or just another job.
We need to make the link between porn and abuse, and make it anti social. Without the recognition that it is abuse there will be massive resistance to removing it.

dayoftheclownfish · 09/12/2019 12:11

That's the thing, though, in some circles it has become unsayable that porn consumption and buying sex are morally suspect.

justcly · 09/12/2019 12:14

The people responsible for killing women and using "rough sex" as a defence are the men that do that. Surely the first most effective step is to make this defence inadmissible in law?

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Thelnebriati · 09/12/2019 12:15

Its not unsayable, its that there are social repercussions for saying it. So say it and take the consequences. Or choose to stay silent and watch things get worse.

sawdustformypony · 09/12/2019 14:02

The Guardian's published a lot on this 'issue' recently. They sure do recognise good source of click bait when they see it. Interesting that they don't allow comments on these - for fear those legally trained might point out the obvious; that there's a defense alright but it's not about consent. It's about lack of intent.

Is that what its all about - doing away with the distinction between murder and manslaughter ? Probably not, its just click bait for them

WomanDaresTo · 09/12/2019 14:31

I for one am delighted the Guardian is covering this - and from a legally accurate position. Wink

Here's the front cover piece from a week or so back
www.theguardian.com/law/2019/nov/22/concern-over-use-rough-sex-gone-wrong-defence-uk-courts

There are ten (!!!) UK women in the last month who have been in court cases where a "consent" claim is used to homicide or non-fatal assault. 3 homicides, and some cases ongoing.

sawdustformypony · 09/12/2019 14:42

Thank you for that link. The text below is taken from it. The Guardian writer do sometimes slip in the actual legal position. Case law is a primary source of law.

Consent [....] is no defence to injury, let alone death. The principle was established in a 1993 test case, R v Brown

Alez · 09/12/2019 15:11

It's already the law in England & Wales that you can't consent to injury above actual bodily harm. That was decided by the House of Lords in R v Brown. Putting it into statute makes absolutely no difference to the strength of the law as currently stands. The way that rough sex could be relevant is that to commit murder someone you need to intend to do them grievous bodily harm or to kill them. If you don't have that intention then what you did could still be manslaughter i.e. a crime, but it won't be murder. So someone could argue that they didn't intend to hurt the victim because they were just having sex. It's up to the jury to decide whether they believe them or not, relying on evidence (which might pretty clearly point to the defendant intending to hurt the victim, as in Grace Millane's case). So, if there's a problem here it's probably in societal attitudes, rather than the law.

Interestingly enough, the Owen Bowcott article seems to imply that the victims in the R v Brown case were women, when in fact they were men. It made for pretty horrific reading when I was at law school, and is often regarded as a homophobic decision. Interesting to see it spoken about as a good thing.

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