LibDem funding own thread.

[Cismyfatarse1]

Hopefully, this works as a share token.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/puberty-blocker-drug-firm-donated-cash-to-lib-dems-cf3x77nh3?shareToken=5ac14da89a7a4d69ca77cce33d7421f6

Shocking, as I said on the other thread. I wasn't going to vote for them after all they have said but this made DH reconsider too.

bettybeans - I'm pointing out that Paulsen funds the Lib Dems because he is anti-Brexit, not because there is some payday looming from giving kids hormones. If the drug was still under patent and they could get a licence for using it in kids and charge a fortune for it, I'd maybe buy this as an explanation for the Lib Dem funding. But it isn't.

The patent expired yonks ago and if the Lib Dems got in and suddenly hormone blockers were handed out in vast quantities, then any old generics company could make blockers and sell them pretty cheaply and there'd be no payback for Ferring

Vernon I get that. All of it. But I'm going to guess that donations made by Ferring to LD dwarf potential profits even on a short term basis. I don't believe it's the sole driver (esp for a pharma co with varied interests) but dismissing the idea that it might even be part of a package of benefits seems daft. Especially when LDs don't stand any chance of winning a GE.

Thanks for your perspective Vernon. Important to get a clear picture. Hope your baby isn’t keeping you up all night

Cheers, kind of you

I would want to know why a drug company, Ferring, sponsored the crucial Dutch trial into puberty blockers

£££££££ There are billions to be made from this before it all blows up and their insurers are hit for billions.

It's the doctors who'd be liable as they'd have prescribed a drug which wasn't licenced for use in children or for that matter, the indication - ie without any data from a randomised placebo-controlled trial to test safety and efficacy of the drug to delay/prevent puberty in children. It's only licensed for use in IVF treatment or to treat prostate cancer.

Should've also added that I do appreciate the informed and detailed input Vernon. Typing on phone means I omit the niceties and often the courtesy! I's interesting and I would definitely opt for taking a broader approach to interpretation than just looking for a solitary smoking gotcha gun. It's complex. Best of luck with the tiny human ;)

Lots of comments on this one (including a couple of panickers, one using T**f as an insult)

Thanks for the input Vernon

I do think we need to be careful to avoid conspiracy theories, and the money doesn't seem to me to add up on this one - the number of kids being given this drug in the UK is not huge, Ferring can't make that much from it. The Brexit explanation does make more sense.

Agree with Betty. We don't know the complexities behind this relationship so I wouldn't be too quick to give it a clean bill of health. The funding of the lib dems was well before Brexit. Lib dems will never win an election but as a coalition partner they will make certain demands.

VernonSquare, could you enlighten us on why Paulsen / Ferring was funding the Lib Dems back in 2013 and 2014, before an EU referendum had been announced? But around the time that Stephen Whittle, Alex Drummond, Stonewall et al were slipping in the back door of Westminster to have unpublicised consultations with politicians with a view to making a few 'merely administrative' changes to the GRA that have resulted, for all practical purposes, in self-ID? 'Merely administrative' changes in which not one women's organisation was consulted, by the way.

Just did a quick google on Paulsen. Can't help wondering about what sort of liberal moves to Switzerland from his notoriously liberal country of birth, Sweden, to avoid paying tax. He also serves on the board of Philip Morris International: no idea why a progressive person would do that but perhaps he's hoping tobacco addicts can be weaned onto something his pharma companies can profit from.

Both drugs and Ferring mentioned here; not sure significance:

blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/

I sometimes genuinely wonder about the impact of the placebo effect on wellbeing for these young people; just being heard can have huge impact on mental health and wellbeing. It's just that unfortunately teens don't have the capacity to think long term about implications, which is the nature of being a teen.

moves to Switzerland from his notoriously liberal country of birth, Sweden, to avoid paying tax

Think you've answered your own question there. He's a liberal, not a socialist and had the good fortune to inherit a company his parents built. Like other multinational pharma companies including Novartis and Roche, Ferring presumably chose Switzerland for their HQ as it made business sense.

Who in the LibDems is pushing this area?

VernonSquare thanks for taking the time to explain the (non) profitablilty of generic drugs for companies like Ferring.

Unfortunately the Lib Dem policies on this issue are so odd that at this point it is believable that they are motivated by cash. However, I think the sad reality is that the Lib Dems stopped representing the 'sensible liberal middle' a while ago and are now just odd.

VernonSquare
Being anti Brexit is clearly not the only reason for Ferring's funding of the LibDems, since they have been donating large sums regularly since 2013.

Why is a Swiss based pharmaceutical company with a Swedish owner making large donations to a UK political party?

Unfortunately the Lib Dem policies on this issue are so odd that at this point it is believable that they are motivated by cash.

Or as Coyoacan put it earlier in the thread: how else do we explain Jo Swinson?

Lib Dems - many years of being odd:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2006/dec/18/pop.liberaldemocrats

Has big pharma donated to the other parties just as much? Without that info, hard to know how to judge LDs.

Has big pharma donated to the other parties just as much?

These are the search results for donations from pharmaceutical companies for all parties.

Labour had some small donations in 2004-5 (largest donation £11,750, total value of donations around £20,000), but apart from that it's just the donations from Ferring to the Lib Dems.

These are the donations to the Labour Party from pharmaceutical companies.

The patent expired yonks ago and if the Lib Dems got in and suddenly hormone blockers were handed out in vast quantities, then any old generics company could make blockers and sell them pretty cheaply and there'd be no payback for Ferring

For some of these drugs the patent has expired. Others, such as Firmagon (Degarelix) are still only available as a branded medication from Ferring.

Perhaps it would be naïve to assume that Ferring only cares about getting a return on puberty blockers?

For a pharmaceutical company there must be many dividends for encouraging thousands of confused kids to become dependent on a lifetime of drugs. Puberty blockers almost inevitably lead to cross sex hormones which then almost inevitably lead to multiple surgeries, each of which will require specific, expensive medications.

All big firms have big advertising budgets. Getting politicians to publicly state and try to normalise the (quite extreme) view that you can change sex is probably a sound investment for a company that produces drugs.

I believe Testim is a current Ferring product - a daily use testosterone gel prescribed to female to male transitioners

www.ferring.com/en/products/urology/#urology-products-expanded-3

An example taken from the NHS Sunderland Clinical Commissioning Group guidelines:

Three topical preparations are widely used and the dose interval is guided by
serum testosterone levels taken 4-6 hours after application and haematocrit:
 Testogel® (50mg in g (1%) sachets) 50-100mg daily
 Tostran® (10mg/0.5ml (2%) metered dose pump) 30-80mg daily
 Testim® (50mg/5g (1%) tubes) 50-100mg daily

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=sunderlandccg.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/SCCG-Gender-Dysphoria-Masculinising-Hormones-Dec-2015.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi3leX5qabmAhUEyoUKHR_-CccQFjAUegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw07k8Nv7sK_QjBnodRO2vKp&cshid=1575817599952" rel="nofollow" target="blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=sunderlandccg.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/SCCG-Gender-Dysphoria-Masculinising-Hormones-Dec-2015.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi3leX5qabmAhUEyoUKHR-CccQFjAUegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw07k8Nv7sK_QjBnodRO2vKp&cshid=1575817599952