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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Use of preferred pronouns in work signature

105 replies

refusetobeasheep · 05/12/2019 22:06

I came across my first work signature today which showed the preferred pronouns I should use. Not entirely sure why as she has an unambiguously female name and her pronouns are she / her / hers.

Anyone else seeing this in their professional lives?

OP posts:
MarieIVanArkleStinks · 06/12/2019 12:10

Everywhere.

But I'm not joining. It's a hill to die on for me that I will not draw attention to my sex in the workplace (in which there's still a pay gap, in which my performance has zero to do with my biology, in which males still hold the majority of senior positions and in which I, personally, have been sexually harrassed).

Just no.

LikeothersIamjustme · 06/12/2019 14:55

Is this for the 'non binary' types? I would suspect most trans men or women who want to 'pass' will have already adopted a traditionally masculine or feminine name so people would (without thinking) use their 'preferred' pronouns

StopThePlanet · 06/12/2019 16:17

It does affect us.

I too work in a male-dominated industry and took to not having my first name in my signature block (just initial) to avoid sexual harassment and assumptions of my skill or ability. While it is quite obvious what sex I am when you see me in person email interactions do not convey my sex and I want to keep it that way thank you very much.

My sex, my sexual orientation, music tastes, relationship status, and lack of genderist ideology adherence etc. is not relevant in my business interactions. I'm not looking for someone to fuck or to be validated. I'm just trying to make money and IDGAF about the person's or persons' sex/sexual orientation/pronouns I'm interacting with as it isn't relevant and has zero bearing on their ability.

Fuck off with this shit.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 07/12/2019 09:47

I've just seen the response I want to give if anybody tries to start making me add pronouns;:

"Pronouns: yes I am. Why would anybody be anti-nouns"

GrinGrinGrin

Chrysanthemum5 · 07/12/2019 10:10

@BuzzShitbagBobbly that's a brilliant response! Grin

OhHolyJesus · 07/12/2019 10:18

I agree Stop I have never understood the relevance of someone's sexuality or identity at work.

When I was interviewed they didn't even know my name, nor my age, no info where I could be discriminated against.

I'm not at all interested who you sleep with or how you identify, just do your job and I'll do mine.

Somehow it's as if highlighting it makes it worse and bring attention to something that really shouldn't matter.

ChattyLion · 07/12/2019 10:43

It’s as irrelevant to work, and as sexist, as it would be for an employer to force single or married/civil partnered women to put either Miss or Mrs on their email signature.

Fairenuff · 07/12/2019 20:20

I have a twofold defense ready if they try to enforce this in my workplace:

  1. I am as yet undecided on my preferred pronouns

  2. It would 'out me' to state my preferred pronouns and would be triggering as I'm not ready for that yet.

I think that would be enough to make HR back off.

Also, they are now calling them 'correct' pronouns, not 'preferred' which is obviously now transphobic.

thatmustbenigelwiththebrie · 07/12/2019 20:24

Everyone has this where I work (but I do work in equality and diversity so not really surprising). I have not because I don't want to. No one has asked me to yet...

RHTawneyonabus · 07/12/2019 21:54

In a big organisation I interact with a lot everyone now has preferred pronouns. I assumed I was just dealing with very woke people but it’s everyone so I think it must be mandatory there.

It’s also a very diverse organisation with lots of names from all over the world. Not always possible to tell the sex of people if you are not familiar with the names in other cultures. However in all the time I’ve been dealing with them not knowing someone sex when talking to them by email has never been a problem. It makes zero difference to our discussion on work subjects and why should it?

Voice0fReason · 07/12/2019 22:23

Some excellent responses in this thread that will make it impossible for organisations to make this nonsense compulsory.

I cannot stand it. I am not going to announce my pronouns to anyone, they are not mine to insist upon.

BickerinBrattle · 07/12/2019 22:56

Should we also need to list our religion in our email signatures?

It too is a protected characteristic.

And after all, it costs us nothing to state our religious affiliations and may help those who feel reluctant explaining why they don’t work certain days of the week or are avoiding meals at certain times of the year.

We might even wear badges, to be helpful. If the pronouns badges are pink or blue, or pink and blue striped, what color should the religious identity badges be?

PencilsInSpace · 07/12/2019 23:19

The idea is that if everybody puts their preferred pronouns on email sigs etc. then it makes things more comfortable for trans and NB people who need to state their pronouns to avoid being 'misgendered' because their colleagues have eyes.

This would be fine if it actually didn't affect others but it does. To quote PPs:

She's performing an anti-feminist action, of normalising a practice that risks, for women, invoking implicit bias against them, by drawing irrelevant attention to her sex.

I argued it on the grounds of stereotype threat and confirmation bias (wasn’t called that in 1995 but both concepts existed) and i won my argument. It stopped being a requirement very quickly.

It very much affects me, I often deliberately use a gender neutral version of my name in emails when dealing with people who haven't met me as it makes a big and positive difference in how helpful respondents are. I wish it wasn't so but it is.

It’s been proven that when people think they are dealing with a man (or think it could be a man) that they behave very differently to when it’s a woman. So I agree that reinforcing femininity and agreement with feminine gender-norms (which you surely do if you think the body doesn’t matter and that how you feel is the important thing) will increase the risk of prejudice.

I deliberately use a shortened version of my name which is unisex. As I work in tech, I am assumed to be male and it makes my job easier to be assumed to be male.

I too work in a male-dominated industry and took to not having my first name in my signature block (just initial) to avoid sexual harassment and assumptions of my skill or ability. While it is quite obvious what sex I am when you see me in person email interactions do not convey my sex and I want to keep it that way thank you very much.

When I was interviewed they didn't even know my name, nor my age, no info where I could be discriminated against ... Somehow it's as if highlighting it makes it worse and bring attention to something that really shouldn't matter.

etc. etc. and these are just some objections related to he protected characteristic of sex. Other objections have been raised related to the protected characteristic of disability and, if Maya's tribunal is successful we can also add objections related to the PC of religion or belief (compelled speech etc.).

Harassment in the Equality Act is defined as unwanted conduct related to a protected characteristic which has the purpose or effect of violating someone's dignity or creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for them.

This is prohibited conduct, whether there is an intention to harass or not.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/26

If I was told I had to put my pronouns on my work email sig, or even if it was just 'strongly encouraged', I would feel that this was unwanted conduct related to the PC of sex, which had the effect of creating an intimidating, hostile and offensive environment for me.

If I was treated badly because I made a complaint on these grounds I would also consider myself to have been victimised. This is also prohibited conduct in the Equality Act.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/27

There may also be a case for indirect discrimination because a rule saying everyone must state their pronouns on their email sig will obviously have a worse effect on women. A defence to indirect discrimination is if it's a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim. It might be a legitimate aim to make trans and nb people feel more comfortable but the means are very clearly disproportionate.

You don't need to have been at a workplace for two years to bring a discrimination case. You have rights from day 1 (actually during the recruitment process as well).

ferrier · 07/12/2019 23:36

I deliberately use a gender neutral version of my name. No way am I muddling this with some preferred pronoun nonsense.

PencilsInSpace · 07/12/2019 23:57

This practice crops up a lot in academia and the third sector, also the woke end of the private sector.

It hasn't affected me yet but my sister who works for a research institute in an extremely male dominated field was strongly encouraged to put her pronouns on her sig. She was very worried that she would have trouble at work, maybe even lose her job, if she did not comply.

Luckily she managed to string out 'Sorry, haven't got round to it yet' long enough for the person doing the strong encouragement to make a spectacularly offensive TRA tit of themself on twitter on one of the org's accounts.

So this person was encouraged to take some time off and get some counselling and was then supported to refocus on in-house activities and to relinquish their comms/PR/social media roles that they had so enthusiastically taken on. Those roles were passed to somebody dependable and a bit dull.

The pronouns in email sigs idea was never mentioned again.

RealityNotEssentialism · 08/12/2019 09:46

Pencils that is brilliant. I think a lot of the time, we just need to give these people enough rope to hang themselves with. For instance, someone like Dr Christian Jessen is now showing his true colours by loudly proclaiming that he wants to show porn to school kids and that anyone who disagrees should simply ‘suck it up’.

Caaarrrl · 08/12/2019 14:50

I have decided that at I do not really conform to traditional female gender stereotypes, if I am ever forced to state my pronouns I would like to be referredd to as "it"and"it's".

They and them are grammatically incorrect for an individual, so it and its it is then!

RuffleCrow · 08/12/2019 14:58

We don't have that right, @Thankssomuch. I don't have the right to identify as a famine survivor from sub saharan africa, or a bomb disposal expert. If i commit a crime i do not have the right to identify as someone else in order to avoid sentencing. Nor should i have. Identity is about proving certain facts about ourselves so that others can check we are who we say we are for safety and security reasons.

It isn't about inventing falsehoods and getting others to repeat them. In this case it seemed the truth was being used to justify support for others to lie and force others to endorse that lie.

RealityNotEssentialism · 08/12/2019 15:22

Also, the law does respect identity. Gender reassignment is respected under the law and people can’t discriminate on its basis. What it doesn’t do is force others to adopt the same beliefs. Just as how respecting someone else’s religion doesn’t mean I have to believe it myself. I don’t believe in a gender identity or that femininity is innate so it would be wrong for me to be forced to pretend this was the case. It’s really quite simple. TRAs need to give up their hobby for misogynistic bullying.

Birdsfoottrefoil · 08/12/2019 18:23

Protection of Gender reassignment means a must not be treated differently from other men.

Birdsfoottrefoil · 08/12/2019 18:25

*transwomen must not be treated differently from other men. So for example, a transwoman can not be prevented from using men’s toilets.

RealityNotEssentialism · 08/12/2019 18:27

I don’t think that’s quite what it means but the point is that there already exist legal protections.

Birdsfoottrefoil · 08/12/2019 21:04

That is what it means. I think it was FPFW who eventually got EHRC to admit that the comparator for men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment was other men.

RealityNotEssentialism · 08/12/2019 21:46

No, the law provides that people with that protected characteristic cannot be treated less favourably than someone who does not share that characteristic. That doesn’t mean that transwomen are always compared to men and that nothing else is discrimination. Transwomen presumably wouldn’t be arguing for use male toilets would they? There are a small number of exceptions that can be made where services are based on biological sex and, where it is proportionate, it is not discrimination to exclude trans people.

Sorry, don’t mean to be picky but there’s enough misinformation about the equality act as it is. What EHRC says or ‘admits’ is not crucial. It is the court that ultimately interprets the Equality Act and some of the cases involve transwomen arguing that they should use women’s toilets and the courts have not said that a male comparator is appropriate. Nor does the act say so.

PencilsInSpace · 08/12/2019 22:07

There is case law that says the correct comparator for a tw with no GRC is a male without the PC of gender reassignment.

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2013/3491.html

Julian Norman discussed this last year:

filia.org.uk/news/2018/8/23/has-everyone-really-got-it-wrong

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