The whole “ has fallen” thing.....

[somebrightmorning]

Feel free to check out my posting history. I happily expect most of you to either not give a shit or disagree. Just a minority report.

I think the “has fallen” thing is weird. Fallen from what? Grace with God? Paradise? When was this mystical past when the “fallen” organisations (reminds me of “fallen woman”) were so pro-woman? Except in the case of girl guides that past never existed.

Maybe people find it useful shorthand to indicate the kind of thread it is?

As you were, I’ll watch the tumbleweed go past.

people are allowed to have opinions

Some people are most definitely not allowed to have opinions. They get sacked. They get visited by the police. They get hounded Maya Forstater. Dr. Louise Moody. Harry the Owl. I regard the existential threat to freedom of speech as a far more significant issue than the meaning of ‘fallen’ You clearly have other priorities

Fallen = succumbed to an ideology. HTH.

no. it doesn't.

WorkingItOutAsIGo
It’s a pop culture reference. It’s a joke.

Jeez, I'm glad some of you get it. Yes, it's tongue in cheek and yet deadly serious. Regulatory capture is very real.

You clearly have other priorities

Urgh, not for the first time it seems my references are very outdated. I didn't know there was a film reference.

Anyway, I have read the rest of the posts, thanks for replying good to see there's a variety of opinions. I guess those who find it useful will continue to use it.

I have learnt a lot since I joined this board - have found the best way not to get roasted is to be very clear that I don't care whether each poster approves my opinion or not and that we're not here to like each other. I'll continue to express myself as I wish and others can continue to ignore, engage or express suspicions about motives and that's all fine and as pointed out this not very important in the grand scheme of things.

I've tended to read it as 'fallen for the lie'.
Ha ha, you fell for it!
Except it's not funny. It is a lie, and it is a campaign of disinformation and pressure to promote the lie.

So women’s rights to safety and dignity are to be mocked?
Off you trot to M&Sleaze and join the other sweaty blokes

No. I’m not mocking women’s rights. There are genuine trans women who would find it very painful to use the men’s. Are you mocking them?
Let’s not degenerate into personal attacks please.

Thank you Fieldofgreycorn

M&Sleaze - I missed that. How apt (having had a read of their bra reviews - including teen bras).

^I've tended to read it as 'fallen for the lie'.
Ha ha, you fell for it!^

Yes, me too. I do see believers in gender identity ideology to be either self interested (TRAs, woke men who like abusing women online, people who like starting arguments) or extremely credulous.

I do think it is a hit cringey but I assumed it was supposed to be tongue in cheek?

There are genuine trans women who would find it very painful to use the men’s.

What's the difference between genuine and not genuine?

NATALT is the same argument as NAMALT. That is to say, a bollocks argument.

(Fuxxake. Pun not intended. You can't change language like this and get away with it, you pesky bloody queer theorists - as much for the fact that it fucks up my swearing as it does women's rights. Justice for swearers!)

There are genuine women who would find it very painful to share with men. Are you mocking them?

Fixed that for you.

Am I the only one who thinks of Harry Potter? The Ministry of Magic has fallen!

m.youtube.com/watch?v=JXlJ6sTeO_k

In the ongoing war on women 'fallen' is an appropriate description of the loss of female territory to male occupation.
It is important for women to share information on areas that are no longer safe female spaces.

There are genuine trans women who would find it very painful to use the men’s

Which is exactly why this third space solution (one of mixed sex, available to everyone) that feminists on here have been banging on about since forever is the only solution that will work.

I wish people like fieldofgreycorn would actually get it, instead of guilt tripping and insulting women at every opportunity.

Its also an apt pun because 'fallen woman' has been an insult for centuries.

It's not the wording I'd use, but then it's not my threads. If I'm honest, the wording grates a little, but I can't imagine starting my own thread to complain!

I do try not to veer too close to conspiracy thinking myself, on Occam's Razor grounds (incompetence covers a lot of things adequately), but I will say, this ideology makes it hard NOT to see conspiracy. And when groups are taking onboard legal advice to avoid transparency in their push to remove parental rights from families with ROGD or other GD kids, it does start to seem like a conspiracy.

Idk. It's just not the phrasing I'd use. Maybe because I consider everywhere already 'fallen'.

Seriously? I haven’t insulted anyone here.

I don't like the "has fallen" thing. If I had seen it on a TRA twitter thead, I'd take the piss out of the drama of it all.

This. I do understand where people who use it are coming from but I think it's at risk of being overused. Also, it implies some kind of advance of the TRA activism in the face of noble resistance, when it's all much messier and insidious and crap than that. These organisations don't resist, they just don't pay attention and go along with things to avoid finding themselves called out or 'on the wrong side of history', and then end up throwing women under the bus.

But I like I said I do understand some of the thinking behind using it, and that I might be in a minority in wincing at it the more I see it.

I can't help feeling that these companies have their marketing strategy wrong. How can purveyors of women's lingerie believe that it is a good strategy to throw women under the bus in favour of catering to a small number of male-bodied individuals self-identifying their way into female changing rooms? (Yes, M&S, I am looking at you). Women's buying power is substantial - we need to hit them where it hurts.

It’s a pop culture reference. It’s a joke.
This

Jeez, I'm glad some of you get it. Yes, it's tongue in cheek and yet deadly serious. Regulatory capture is very real.

And this