Chief Statistician Scotland: working group on sex and gender in data - "engagement events'

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

I thought some of you might like to get involved? (I am not the chief Statistician, just spreading the word!)

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Over the last month, I have put together the starting point for guidance for organisations to consider whether to collect data about sex or gender, and if they choose to do so, how to do it. This covers some of the definitions and approaches I’ve seen from other places around the world, together with views from the experts on our working group.

Like I say, this is just a starting point. An important part of this work will be to make sure our proposals are informed by evidence from a wide range of individuals and organisations with views on and lived experience of these issues. And that’s exactly what we’re doing next. Over the next two months I’m meeting organisations, groups and people to listen to their views on what I’ve proposed. I’ll be evolving the proposed guidance along the way.

While I’m meeting specific folk I know will be interested, I’m keen to make sure that all interested people can contribute. Therefore, I am therefore putting together a few engagement events early next year to allow members of the public to contribute to respectful discussions on the working group’s findings so far. If you are interested in attending, can you drop an e-mail to me at [email protected] with your interest, whether you represent an organisation, and how many people you work with are likely to come along. I’ll come back with some details to those people once it is clear about the number of people who would want to come along.

This will all help to deliver on my commitment to finalise a set of guidance in late spring.
blogs.gov.scot/statistics/2019/12/03/working-group-on-sex-and-gender-in-data-update/

Before anyone highlights the word “folk” which I’ve noticed has been picked on before as a woke speech indicator, Scottish people are likely to use folk instead of people. But not “folks”.

This sounds very interesting

Oh this is really good. Thanks for sharing! I've passed it on to For Women Scotland though they might already be aware of it.
I don't really have background in statistical research, so I don't know if I should attend ... Maybe I'll put myself forward anyway as it does mention wanting to engage with members of the public

Some do say 'folks' actually, for a group of people, a loose colloquialism, say to open a meeting or something. 'Okay, folks' is very common and has been for as long as I can remember.

• but anyway, this is useful. Will Forwomen Scotland be able to comment on this? Hopefully they'll be aware of it?

Geezo, sorry, Nonny, I see you've passed it on to them. Apologies, my brain's a bit soggy today.

Ha! That's ok Scrimshaw, my brain's like that most days!

Bumping up for anyone who wants to attend. It's open to members of the public.

Ah, I've been deliberately using folks as people complained when I used guys for mixed sex groups which I had been doing since the 90s. I'm not woke.

On the whole I would take anything that distinguishes between sex and gender and acknowledges that sex might be a useful thing to record as being a step in the right direction. Perhaps a sign of how far there is to go still.

Before anyone highlights the word “folk” which I’ve noticed has been picked on before as a woke speech indicator, Scottish people are likely to use folk instead of people.

Surely even outside Scotland correct use of folk rather than the horrid folks is simply an indication of better education (and perhaps a little linguistic pedantry)?

Isn't it folx which is approved woke-speak?

Yes random X's reads woke to me. Folks is just a bit informal to me, as in come along folks, time to get started. Flows better, there's a massive glottal stop if you don't soften it with the s.

I've sent this to DD1 who is in final year at Edinburgh uni, joint honours degree with quantitative methods.

Trouble is whilst she's not full on woke she refuses to engage with me on GC issues so she needs a crash course in gender v sex.

I'm getting her Invisible Women for Christmas.

Which key points should I try to impress upon her without being dismissed as mean/obsessed and causing a row?

It says the engagement events are for members of the public i.e. For Women Scotland rather than statisticians.

Useful to hear from members of the public who understand statistics well enough to be able to work out the implications though.

Bringing up this post again for anyone who is interested in attending. There will be an event in Glasgow and Edinburgh. It is free and open to the public although space is limited.

Email the Chief Statistician and they will get back to you with details of the event and how to register etc.

I've signed up.... and shitting myself as I've never been on something like this before!
If anyone has any pertinent points that they think would be useful to raise, feel free to send them my way. Or any reading material - I'll be going through stuff on the Murray Blackburn Mackenzie site which I hope will help me when putting forward my opinions.

Edinburgh and Glasgow - almost as if they think they have covered all of Scotland by holding events 40 miles apart.

Thanks for bumping. I hadn't seen this. When are the events?

Aesopfable yes it's pretty pants that the events are only in Edinburgh and Glasgow. I assumed they would also be in Aberdeen and a few other areas.

RicketyLangClegety the one in Glasgow is on Tuesday, 11 February at 2:00pm.
The one in Edinburgh is on Monday, 17 February at 10:00am.

Jeez why 10 am and 2 pm.

Some people might have jobs

Pretty much every government event for any kind of 'public engagement' rarely takes into account that many people work and would find it difficult to attend. Sessions are never planned to accommodate different demographics.

I'm planning to take the day off, but I know that's not an option for others.

Go for it, Nonnymouse! You're always measured and reasonable on here, I'm sure you'll do great. Thanks for taking the time to do this.

I wonder if they would accept input after or outwith the meeting, too? Would be helpful for people who can't attend.

Please send input if you can to the chief statistician even if you can't attend these meetings. I think one critical issue to address is why knowing about sex is important, as opposed to gender, so focusing on all the usual suspects eg healthcare, prisons etc is important but also how eg womens biology and reproductive function has led to systemic discrimination such as the gender pay gap and any other areas where you think this has happened. It is also important to stress that while there may only be a small minority of people who identify as trans when looking at the population as a whole, when we break down the population into groups eg by age or maybe geographical area or even by health condition then the proportion of transgender people vis a vis the rest of that population might be much higher. And this could affect statistical analysis. I might also add that it is almost impossible to plan good services for transgender people if we don't know how many there are and what are their needs and conflating sex and gender will not help with that.

In 1992, the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) adopted the fundamental principles of official statistics in the UNECE region. These include:

1. Professional standards and ethics

To retain trust in official statistics, the statistical agencies need to decide according to strictly professional considerations, including scientific principles and professional ethics, on the methods and procedures for the collection, processing, storage and presentation of statistical data.

www.unece.org/?id=3207

Thanks for the kind words, Scrimshaw. I hope I can convey the importance of accurately recording sex related data.

I've sent the staff member an email to ask whether people can send in their views if they are unable to attend the engagement events, and if the proposals will be online for the general public to access and comment on.

Great points raised Mamello and Mockers.

Have ticket for Glasgow event but a bit worried I'll be out of my depth. Any reading suggestions ?

334bu I was going to focus my initial reading on the MBM Policy site.

They have released an official letter to the Sex and Gender working group.

mbmpolicy.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/murrayblackburnmackenzie-letter-to-the-working-group-on-sex-and-gender-data-chair-20-january-2020-final.pdf

The main areas of concern seem to be

• Criminal justice
• Health
• Census

They have various letters and blog posts published under these categories.
murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/scotlands-2021-census-and-other-data/

I will trawl through my saved links and notes to see if there's any other useful resources.