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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Freedom of speech at school?

54 replies

Mbwashenzi · 27/11/2019 09:01

I'd love your thoughts on this, people. My DD (12) suggested in the school debating society that they should discuss whether transgender athletes should have their own sporting category. Teacher said that it was a good idea but he would have to check whether the school LGBT Soc will let them discuss this topic. They've debated some pretty heavyweight subjects before (death penalty for example), but there's never been any question that a subject is inappropriate. Should I be concerned?

OP posts:
MedusasButterDish · 29/11/2019 07:10

I was reminded recently of "Chatham House Rules". www.chathamhouse.org/chatham-house-rule#

The rule originated at Chatham House with the aim of encouragingopenness of discussion and facilitating the sharing of information.

It is now used throughout the world as an aid to free discussionof sensitive issues. It provides a way for speakers to openly discuss their views in private while allowing the topic and nature of the debate to be made public and contribute to a broader conversation.

The Chatham House Rule reads as follows:

When a meeting, or part thereof, is held under theChatham House Rule, participants are free to use the information received, but neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s), nor that of any other participant, may be revealed.

Imagine having to confront information and argument without knowing if it's from an ideologically approved source. Terrifying! [shock
Well, terrifying for some.

Good luck to your daughter, OP! She can be proud of having realised there's an issue to be debated.

Floisme · 29/11/2019 10:15

Given the current climate, I could understand a teacher wanting to run it past the head first. It's running it past a group of other children (I assume they're children?) that I would find very concerning indeed.

And I agree with Goosefoot that learning how to debate an argument you don't personally agree with is really important.

andyoldlabour · 29/11/2019 10:43

Mockers - brilliant posts by you on Wednesday, they definitely managed to get rid of the pupil in Scotland.
OK here we go - LGBT society in a secondary school - is that normal and if so, why should they be consulted about debating topics?
Has the school got a Sports society or an Ethics society, which could sensibly discuss the effects of transwomen competing in women's sports?

Ringdonna · 29/11/2019 13:08

The problem with this subject is that teens don't have the intelkect or broad knowledge to discuss this. Plus they will be influenced by their parents and feel pressurised to follow their lead. Add in teenage girl's hormones and it could be a disaster leading to complaints of transphobia, bullying etc. The teacher should advise them to discuss less sensitive and contentious issues like climate change.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 29/11/2019 15:55

I disagree that it's not a suitable topic - my dd does debating at school and the way it works is that most of the time it is a topic they don't know anything about and they go off and research it, - one of the main benefits she is getting on it is that she's not just sharpening her arguing skills, she's also becoming better informed about all sides of a wide range of topics.
It doesn't matter whether you have developed your independent thinking or just follow your parents, because you don't get to choose which side you argue and there is no assumption that what you are saying is what you actually believe.
It's more that they should only be doing it if the head is prepared to stick up for them, repeat to anyone trying to throw mud that the nature of debating is exploring a subject from all sides and stamp down hard on any bullying by the LGBT society should it arise, imo.

littlecabbage · 29/11/2019 19:16

Ringdonna that is very insulting to the intelligence of many teenagers, and the comment about "girl's hormones" (sic) is downright sexist. Are you implying that their hormones somehow impede their critical thinking?

OutThereSomewhere · 29/11/2019 19:27

I doubt our local school would allow such a debate. They are 100% supportive of all their students and promote the importance of inclusion. Debating whether to exclude a minority group from a specific sport due to their chosen gender is purely discrimination. Excluding a transgender person is akin to excluding based on ethnicity or race.

PurpleFrames · 29/11/2019 19:41

I can see the teacher doesn't want to affect anyone in a difficult period of their lives

But that said the debate is not on whether trans people exist or not

I think it would be a good debate for yp

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 29/11/2019 19:46

'Excluding a transgender person is akin to excluding based on ethnicity or race.'

And so the opposition would argue, and the proposition would bring in evidence to show why it is very different indeed.

And then the audience could make up their mind based on the quality of the arguments.
Funny how one side is so scared of this.

littlecabbage · 29/11/2019 23:44

Debating whether to exclude a minority group from a specific sport due to their chosen gender is purely discrimination.

No-one is excluding them from any sport. But they need to be in the correct category for their biological sex, so as not to exclude women (the real, science-based kind).

Coyoacan · 30/11/2019 06:02

Outofsomewhere, do you ever wonder why sports are divided by sex? Then have you thought of any good reason to change those categories?

Milanimilani · 30/11/2019 06:17

Racist people always have to join the debate...

SonEtLumiere · 30/11/2019 06:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HorseWithNoFucksToGive · 30/11/2019 08:50

No, more akin to excluding on the basis of sex or age or lack of qualification.

Excellent reply to nonsense.

MIdgebabe · 30/11/2019 09:05

It seems a sensible topic...should transgender people have their own category. It's basically asking if the current sex/disability categorisation system should be extended, so it's focussing on why the current system might not work for transgender people which seems compassionate and practical. Not sure why OP was objecting? Did I miss some further explanation?

OutThereSomewhere · 30/11/2019 19:27

Oh suddenly it's sex and not gender. Whatever it takes to win your anti trans 'debate'. Hmm
Ignorance or Racism are never a defence.

MIdgebabe · 30/11/2019 19:31

Eh? Sports is sex segregated in the UK, and in the Uk there is no legal basis for gender segregation. Which might be a problem for people whose gender identity is very at odds with their sex.

Velveteenfruitbowl · 30/11/2019 19:32

@Goosefoot what is SSM? Islam (in particular when it comes to women’s rights) is another one to add to your list.

Velveteenfruitbowl · 30/11/2019 19:36

@littlecabbage mine do Blush Not all women cope as well with their hormones as you do apparently. The constant insistence that female hormones don’t affect ones faculties may be why I’ve found it so difficult to find a doctor who will help me.

koshkat · 30/11/2019 19:36

Excluding a transgender person is akin to excluding based on ethnicity or race

So shockingly racist and seemingly ok about it. Awful. Confused

koshkat · 30/11/2019 19:38

Oh suddenly it's sex and not gender

What?

StillWeRise · 30/11/2019 19:41

outtheresomewhere do you not understand the difference between sex and gender? no wonder you are confused

sex- refers to biological reality, in mammals, most species are sexually dimorphic, that is the females (who are capable of bearing young) are different in various ways from the males (who produce sperm)- in humans males are on the whole bigger and heavier, more muscular than females. For this reason in activities where competition is based on physical attributes (like sport) for reasons of fairness, we segregate by sex

gender- refers to cultural artefacts such as clothing, grooming practices, mannerisms or preferences that in any one place or time are associated with one sex or another. These are NOT linked to any biological reality. There is no reason to limit anyone's participation in anything based on their gender expression

hth

littlecabbage · 30/11/2019 20:24

Velveteenfruitbowl I'm sorry if I caused any offence, but the only time I have ever heard women saying their hormones affect their critical thinking, is during menopause.

I'm sorry if that hasn't been the case for you - that sounds awful, but I have genuinely never had this issue, and never heard friends, family or other women complain about it.

There are always medical exceptions to general situations, but I stand by my assertion that most teenage girls do not have their critical thinking impaired by hormones. I went to an all-girls school which was next door to an all-boys school, and the girls' school consistently outperformed the boys at GCSE and A-Level. Which leads me to believe that teenage girls' critical thinking and intelligence are not significantly affected by their hormones.

I'd be interested to hear what other women's experiences are though.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 30/11/2019 20:48

Oh suddenly it's sex and not gender

Welcome to mumsnet. It has always been about sex not gender for us. Knock yourselves out with your all genders or non. We don't care.
We are interested in women's sex based rights. Like the right to play competitive sport against other women. 🤷‍♀️

koshkat · 30/11/2019 20:59

It has always been about sex not gender for us. Knock yourselves out with your all genders or non. We don't care

Indeed.

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