Labour manifesto on abortion rights.

[Gingerkittykat]

We will uphold women’s reproductive
rights and decriminalise abortions from page 48.

Does anyone know exactly what this means? Someone on my facebook is frothing about killing babies up till birth and I'd like to have more info on the details to refute his arguments.

It's because abortion in the mainland GB is still that abortion is illegal, but there are exemptions if there is a risk to the women's health/mental health and two doctors agree to sign it off, up to 24 weeks (beyond for FFA or risk to life).

I guess they are saying they will change it so that abortion up to (eg) 24 weeks is not illegal, similar to how Ireland have done?

That's my guess.

They've been specific about other issues, this is very loosely worded.

I think that's it, Sonic. They're going to make abortion fully legal and remove the two doctor thing but otherwise leave the limits. Pro-lifers are up in arms because Stella Creasy has suggested no term limits and they want Labour to confirm they're not taking that bit on board. I don't think they are.

Thanks for the clarification, I did a bit of googling and it said they are looking to bring the guidelines in line with N Ireland.

Haven’t seen what Labour are promising but these are some arguments for decriminalisation: www.bpas.org/get-involved/campaigns/briefings/10-reasons-to-decriminalise-abortion/

Not sure about the U.K. but in other countries this has raised questions about ripple effects.
In the US, which has much of its law based in English common law, the problem they found in a few states with decriminalising abortion is that it also decriminalised homicide. The usual way to decriminalise it would be to make any and all deaths of a fetus not a crime by striking the word fetus from the legal codes for homicide. So for example you kill your pregnant wife. Right now, you are charged with two murders. But if abortion is fully decriminalised, you would only be charged with one murder.
So for example, you are pregnant and your doctor botches the C-section killing your unborn fetus, you cannot prosecute for manslaughter because killing a fetus is not a crime.

I’d rather see barriers to abortions lowered than the fetus demoted to lower status than a pet cat or dog. You do not need to decriminalise the killing of a fetus in order to remove the two doctor requirement. Just make it one doctor and even then only if you are past a threshold where abortion could be medically unsafe for the mother (surgical abortion). For abortions done by chemical means, by the pills, no doctor should be required just anyone with prescribing authority which many nurses do have.

The US might conflate abortion, a C section that goes wrong, and homicide; that doesn't mean we have to.

@PlanDeRaccordement
I'm not sure how to quote on here, but currently in British law, you cannot murder an unborn child as they are not classed as a person until they have drawn their first breath. There are other offences, but not murder. Killing a pregnant woman is one murder charge not two.

Yes, it is strange in the US. Every state is different first of all and that is madness to me. It does all hinge around person and personhood.

From what I could understand the killing of a fetus is illegal and considered fetal homicide in their criminal codes in most states (38 of 50). Many states if you harm a pregnant woman and her fetus dies as a result, you can be charged with fetal homicide or feticide. This one woman was even charged with fetal homicide of her own fetus when she started a fight by attacking another woman and was shot by her intended victim, killing her fetus. She had to be pardoned.

When abortion was legalised, it was done as an exception to the criminal laws covering feticide. So abortion becomes an excepted or legal killing, similar in principle to the death penalty also being an exception to state murder (eg police brutality).

I would be interested to know if it is similar in U.K. criminal code? Sonics post indicates it might be. Sonic said that abortion is generally illegal in GB mainland but has exceptions that allow abortion within limits.
So why is abortion generally illegal but with exceptions? Is the fetus a unborn person like in the US or live property (like a pet or livestock) or part of the mother? Is abortion a separate “crime” from homicide entirely in the criminal and common law books?

I know U.K. is different from US, but are there any legal ripple effect arguments against decriminalising abortions if done in U.K.? Curious to know.

Unlike in the US, a foetus is not afforded personhood so there is no offence of murdering or harming a foetus.

What there is is the Offences against the Person Act 1861 which has the offence of procuring an abortion.

This offence is still in place but the abortion act 1967 made it subject to certain exceptions.

So when people talk about decriminalisation they mean removing the offence from the 1861 Act and instead making abortion a healthcare issue rather than a potentially criminal one.

I found this statement
“Rather than making abortion legal, the Act makes exceptions to the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act which made abortion an offence punishable by life in prison.”

Section 58 is about a woman obtaining an abortion
Section 59 about abortion providers or anyone deliberately causing an abortion.

Wikipedia says this: unlawful if not done in accordance with the 1967 abortion law. So...

An offence under section 58 is punishable with imprisonment for life or for any shorter term.

An offence under section 59 is punishable with imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.

That seems grossly unfair. Because, if your violent partner on purpose beats you until you miscarry, he is only liable up to 5yrs but if you deliberately get illegal abortion say in another country, you are liable for up to life in prison!

It would make sense to delete section 58 entirely decriminalising abortion for the mother. Then edit section 59 to only apply to anyone forcing a woman to have an abortion or doing anything to cause a miscarriage on purpose against the woman’s wishes.

Good morning curious monkey looks like we cross posted :)

You were much more detailed than me plan!

Yes curious monkey. I was curious.
I am just shocked that another person currently has more right to cause a miscarriage/abortion in a woman’s body than the woman herself in GB. 5yrs compared to life!
I wonder if UK Labour Party has published any specifics on what they would change in the law?
If I were British, I’d want full legal rights for myself to have an abortion but also have a law to protect my unborn child from others who might want to force one on me by any means. Forced abortion should stay a crime. All other abortions should not be a crime.

I’d want full legal rights for myself to have an abortion but also have a law to protect my unborn child from others who might want to force one on me by any means. Forced abortion should stay a crime. All other abortions should not be a crime.

Agree with this.