Politics Live. BBC 2 .22nd November- discussion Identity Politics, Douglas Murray.

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Have recorded this to watch properly later, a good 5 minute section with Douglas Murray author of The Madness Of Crowds. Transgender rights discussed and the BBC/ Jo Coburn coming across in a rather more impartial manner than we have seen before. Progress.

It is progress. The conclusion was allowed to stand that it was complicated and the implication was that this is due to there being a conflict between women and transgender rights. While one of the 3 denied a conflict she diluted that comment subsequently (though I think she didn't mean to).

. Now as a seasoned follower of the transgender argument it was still superficial coverage and I shouted at the TV. But my DH's take as someone much less aware was as above.

It was an interesting exchange - the labour woke activist - quoted all the usual stats about TW murder rates and Suicide and tried to police Douglas Murray’s language - when he told her to stop - she just sat rolling her eyes - the female Times journalist mentioned the times work in this area and then just sat there looking terrified. when Jo Coburn asked woke labour lady whether there was any conflict between Women’s rights and TW rights - she replied of course not - Douglas Murray said advancing rights (for all groups) was correct but over reach was causing problems - The contrast between his don’t give a fuck attitude - contrasted with the Times female journalist told an interesting story - he was articulate about the concerns of Women, Gay People and Parents - about transing - a word the woke lady hated - expressed by more eye rolling

Douglas Murray was good and was the dominant voice in the discussion. He called the issue the 'trans thing' twice which got the woke one tutting. Tutting doesn't seem an effective deterrent, just saying.

Caroline Wheeler, deputy political editor at the Sunday Times, apparently.

Even the fact that they’re giving Murray air time on this feels like a step forward.

Shall watch when I can.

Going slightly off topic alert now but I've read a bit of his latest book and while I agree about identity politics being toxic and going too far, I've been struggling with why I feel he's being unfair to feminism and missing something.

I think it's because some of the identities he talks about are way more concrete than others and he's lumping them all in with one another.

So from my pov:

Religion - nebulous - belief
Trans - don't want to get deleted.
LGB - innate behavioural differences
Race - surface physiological difference but perhaps some illnesses variation too?
Sex - multiple physiological differences and key biological function differences

I suppose what I'm trying is that sex differences certainly are not an identity (although you can 'identify' with them if you wish). Women have biological vulnerabilites such as to pregnancy and having inferior strength and size compared to males and this is way more concrete than a religious identity for example, and even in a society that is high up the list of equality for males and females, I will always have those vulnerabilities, and men will always have higher testosterone which will lead them to act, to some degree, in some numbers, the way they do wrt women. I am just a bit annoyed by any suggestion that because we now have much better economic parity that we're over-complaining about the 'remnant' inequality Yeah, you know just rape and DV and killings at the hands of our partners and pornified violent sex and prostitution and sexual harassment and videos cams in toilets etc etc which we must now pipe down about a bit because we can get mortgages.

That said, I am glad Murray gets airtime and criticism is like water off a duck's back to him.

He called the issue the 'trans thing' twice which got the woke one tutting. Tutting doesn't seem an effective deterrent, just saying.

I expect she's taken Jolyon Maugham's advice on this.

I saw him trending on Twitter earlier, some pissed off tweeters...

Yes well that was interesting to watch. That labour woman trotted out all the usual tired tropes- suicide suicide suicide bullying - and apparently transgender women massively more at risk of sexual assault than biological women which I doubt very much is the case here in the UK. I imagine that statistic probably comes from prostitutes in South America?

Did DM say anything to that?

I found a lot of his book bizarre on feminism. Plus I didn’t care about the gay hardwire or not issue. But I thought he had some excellent points in other areas.

Currently reading his book on Europe and in the section around the Cologne problems. I’ve suddenly found myself wondering about what feels like a possible reduction in media reporting of rapes etc but it’s hard for me to gauge because I take a lot of breaks from media!

Possibly an idiotic question, but can I see this via catch-up?

I suppose what I'm trying is that sex differences certainly are not an identity

I think you are right, but also that it at times is treated as an identity. And in some cases I think that maybe feminism has had a hand in this.

It's useful IMO to look back from where we are now, and see how certain ideas have played out. Some haven't in the way people expected and we may see that some ideas were bad ones, some need to be refined, or have more careful language used around them. This is important in any movement and even something to be welcomed, but it can feel like giving something up at times.

He got very close to saying there's no such thing as a "trans kid".

Jo Coburn would likely have had an aneurysm on screen!

Yes it's available on iPlayer it's about the last 10 minutes I think the whole segment on identity politics is not that in depth because he doesn't really get chance to discuss it in any detail because the labour woman is just butting in and shaking her head.

You can ncGC should be on iPlayer search - I watched half of it earlier today.

apparently transgender women massively more at risk of sexual assault than biological women which I doubt very much is the case here in the UK. I imagine that statistic probably comes from prostitutes in South America?

I'd be surprised if it were true of any South American country either, the murder stats trans privilege activists like to quote aren't. Most likely, as with much of this ideology, it is a flat out lie.

Good stuff on stats here

so, tell me, how many trans women have died in the UK last year. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3747033-so-tell-me-how-many-trans-women-have-died-in-the-UK-last-year

This week, the week of trans awareness I have seen 331 and 369 quoted on social media as both over the course of the last decade and in the last year.

The woke folk generally aren't to be trusted with stats.

Here is the segment from Politics Live

I am just a bit annoyed by any suggestion that because we now have much better economic parity that we're over-complaining about the 'remnant' inequality

I can't foresee a time when women won't have to fight for their right to participate equally in society, because our equality is dependent on external factors like access to contraception which can't be taken for granted.

I am free of the burden of child bearing because I have easy access to contraception that is free at the point of delivery. That is not something that was available to my mother or grandmother, and I have no reason to assume that it will always be available to my daughter.