'You look like a girl'

[FusionChefGeoff]

DS(7) has long, surfer style hair.

He's getting grief in the playground (DH is also not a fan but that's another thread!)

The insult being thrown around is that 'he looks like a girl' and also taking his name and making into a (made up) female version.

Spoke to school who have spoken to the boys concerned. I also expressed my unhappiness at how the insult is also playing into everyday sexism that looking like a girl is an insult.

I've also explained this to DS - than there's nothing wrong with girls so how silly to try to use that as an insult!! It doesn't even make sense!! So far, he seems to be handling it all ok but it's got me thinking.

If they said, your hair makes you look like a police officer / superhero / footballer then = no insult as DS is not those things but would want to be all those things.

Girl = insult.

However, I remember a friend at school and I'm sure same applies generally nowadays who was mortified that her new hair cut made her look like a boy! Boy = insult because she wasn't one.

So am I overreacting in this instance?? Is it about kids and how they have very strong girl / boy classifications as part of growing up and blurring those lines is confusing??

He also has some jeans - they (finally) fit as he's very slim but they have a small heart embroidered in the pocket - he's refusing to wear them as they are girly.

I'm really interested in getting your takes on all of this and if my feminist hackles should be as raised as they are or do I just need to accept this is a child development thing??

Pink/blue culture is at it's peak in primary school. It gets a lot better at secondary though.
Saying you look like a girl to a boy is as insulting as saying you look like a boy to a girl. In my experience in a couple of years gender non-conforming kids start getting asked if they are gay or trans. I haven't heard this myself but I've read it in group chats that some parents clearly don't monitor.
You are not wrong to stick up for your son and the kids who tease him need educating. I'd be surprised if they hadn't see women with short hair or men with long hair (say Chris Hemsworth as Thor)

I had short hair as a child, it did used to bother me when adults thought I was a boy, not because I thought there was anything wrong with boys, I think it was more that I was disappointed they were getting things wrong. I was sad when Father Christmas visited our primary school and gave me the "boy" gift as I thought he should definitely have known better.
I think playground insults can be about anything that marks you out as a bit different - my long-haired son used to get that too, with the female version of his name. This was a small village primary and all the other boys had short hair. He just shrugged it off. He is now in secondary and there are lots more long haired boys so it's no big deal any more.

Children can be very cruel and mock anything that's not the norm. I'd say the whole being a 'girl' or 'boy' thing (we all know what I mean here) won't help as it's just reinforcing stereotypes, meaning that calling some a 'girl' is an insult. Certainly my male friends have nearly all got long hair, and being into metal cannot in any way be considered girly! I think as they age, children get a bit more accepting (based purely on my childhood, no kids myself), but they aren't always like that, plus if they know it bothers you, they continue. Lack of empathy I think.

Both of my sons have been in the same situation, with long hair between about 6 and 9yo. Both were teased. Ds1 is extraordinarily resilient and shrugged it off , so the teasers soon gave up. Ds2 is more easily upset, so the school addressed it as part of their anti-bullying practice, emphasising accepting differences.

10 years ago ds1 was being teased for being 'girlie'.

3 years ago ds2 was being asked whether he thought he was a girl.

Get his hair cut. The trans lobby will be telling him he's a girl next and sowing confusion in him.

And it's not sexism. It's just seen as an insult because he ISN'T a girl. A girl being told she looked like a boy would also be taken as an insult!

I hear you jelly. DS 1's experience has gone from "those are girls shoes" a few years ago, to "are you a girl now?" this year.

OP my son experiences this a lot too. After a wobbly patch he's quite confident in his choices right now. He doesn't always bother correcting people so I don't think he sees girl as an insult. His best friend is a girl which might help.

The wobbly patch was really hard though. Some of the kids at his school hold deeply conservative views about how boys and girls should behave and look. What's nice is that as DS's confidence has restored he seems to be using his own experience to be more outward looking and is currently on a bit of a campaign about stereotyping and sexism in his school.

A few years ago I tried to find children from what I thought would be more liberal backgrounds for my son to mix with outside of school, thinking they would be more tolerant. Sadly I found these kids were just as likely to police my son's fashion choices as his school friends.

My conclusion is that sexism and a rejection of non conformity (is this latent homophobia?) is rife amongst most children.

Get his hair cut. The trans lobby will be telling him he's a girl next and sowing confusion in him

Whilst this is absolutely my fear, every single story about trans kids that has been covered in the press contains instances of the parents rejecting their child for wanting long hair/ dresses/ dolls/ sparkles /being same sex attracted. Relatives have suggested forcing a haircut but I don't want my son to feel shame for wanting the "wrong" things. Surely that leaves him more vulnerable for when inevitably during secondary school he's told his body is wrong?

My theory is that by allowing my sons non conformity I am letting him know that I accept any of his "feminine" presentation and choices and would accept him should he be gay. Also neither of his parents are particularly conforming, plus he's a creative child and it's just hair and clothes which really are not what makes a person!

My nearly grown up DD remains mortified that she “looked like a boy” when younger because of short hair. I think this is different from the runs/throws like a girl type comments, which definitely are putting girls down.

You could possibly argue that it’s more shameful for a boy to look like a girl than a girl to look like a boy, though I think it’s not clear cut.

I’ve noticed lots of footballers have long hair, tied back in a man bun, also builders, they are incredibly masculine & muscular with strong jaw lines etc, long hair shouldn’t be seen as girly. The other boys are probably just jealous that their parents won’t let them grow their hair.

It’s up to him re the jeans and the hair, ie I wouldn’t make him wear the jeans.

But yep to you look like a boy for a girl being the same type of insult.

Ds 2 (12 and in year 8) gets the same thing. Plus hes been called a "transgender bitch" on occasion. It annoys him but he doesn't let anyone see that and it has started to lessen.

A few years ago his step-mum told him his trousers (skinny fit boys ones) were gay

It's really interesting to hear this.

So yes, the looks like a girl / looks like a boy are insults but more because they are wrong, not necessarily because of sexism / patriarchy in this instance.

Definitely not worried about the trans ideology - very clear in this house it's your genitals and baby making facilities that determine if you are boy or girl and agree with PP that allowing long hair is actually protecting him against that as it's absolutely fine for everyone to look / dress / do / play with whatever they like. It doesn't change who they are.

I'm hoping this is building his resilience and take great pains to point out cool men we see who have long hair - including one of his uncles who is a beast of a rugby player and demonstrates toxic masculinity in all its other forms

I think this is a pretty normal scenario. Kids that age are still figuring out how flexible or inflexible social practices like hair cuts are, and a lot of times they can be very concrete about many things - applying rules in general.
They are also willing to use almost any unusual characteristic to make fun of someone, if they want to make fun of them.

I often think the hair example is funny since so many men have quite long hair, especially singers and historical figures. Maybe it's because young boys can have somewhat feminine faces, it doesn't have the same effect?

In any case, what I've told my kids in these instances is that the social convention is this, and whether it's one that is really a strong convention and people will really notice, or not. And then that they can decide to do what they like, but someone may say something, or if they really don't like that they can change it. It's not that I want them to change to suit others, more that I want them to think about what's important to them in a clear way. hairstyles aren't really very important, so it's ok to decide they'd rather blend in. It's not like making a decision about career or what's right or being a good friend, where social opinion should not matter much if at all.

Get his hair cut. The trans lobby will be telling him he's a girl next and sowing confusion in him

This depresses me. My son is 20 and has had long hair since he was 8 or 9. If he was ever teased about it he never said (though he's so laid back I'm surprised he can stand up straight so it would likely have been water off a duck's back). He did get mistaken, genuinely, for a girl from time to time by adults prior to puberty but it was a mistake that was just shrugged off and everyone went about their day. There was never any mention of 'trans'. Not once. He left school all of three years ago, that's how fast this has changed.

get his hair cut

Deep powerful voice over: You will conform.

My son has shoulder length hair & an elfin face - adults always include him in my count of “daughters” & occasionally direct him to the female toilets (he says no thanks I’m a boy)
He doesn’t get teased for having long hair but does get very annoyed at new kids asking him repeatedly if he is a girl

I do think girl is used as an insult because of sexism- tomboy is not an insult, throw like a girl is etc

Read ‘Cinderella ate my daughter’. It’s about child development stages and how gender conformity is pushed.
They do grow out of it. Later on it’s cool to not conform, so all the boys grow their hair and the girls cut theirs short.
Gender stereotypes are the worst. I’d have them all abolished and let everyone do whatever they want. But sadly they are a thing, and at different stages most (but not all) kids are influenced into conforming to them or fighting against them (which in itself is also a form of conformity - hello swathes of goths/ trans boys/ punks)
My boy got told at the same age that he shouldn’t be in ballet class, because ballet was for girls.
Panopticon stuff. Behaviour control by KS1

I suppose at some level there is a need for children to start to understand biology and how it affects them. Perhaps enforcing gender stereotypes is part of that exploration? From a child's perspective is "girls have long hair" much different from "boys have willies" ?

The point about needing to know who's male / female from evolutionary / instinct is fascinating as I've often thought this.

DD(5) caught a fleeting glimpse of a drag artist on something on TV recently and instantly said 'why is that man looking like a lady' and DS spotted Kaitlyn Jenner a mile off without any prompting from me.

Thats great for your DS challenging notions of 'boyishness', and without making any pretence of being a girl. We need zero tolerance to any kind of bullying and this is no different.

My son has long hair and gets told by children that only girls can have long hair, luckily it doesn’t bother him too much as he knows boys can have long hair as he is one.

He does however get annoyed about being called a girl, it happens a lot, but at his age (4), it is hard to tell if someone is a girl or boy it we just focus on looks.

Long hair is fine on a boy. Just keep showing him pictures of long haired male celebrities and athletes.

Jeans with a pink heart? No way. I would not wear those when I was a girl. He should be allowed to choose his clothes just like his hair. If you must use the jeans, then let him select a cool embroidered patch and sew it on over the heart. One like this:

I've tried removing the embroidery which sort of worked but left a 'shadow' in the heart shape!! I'm thinking of a patch but don't know if I can be arsed. They were the only ones that fit and we waited 2 weeks for delivery from bloody France and they looked 'neutral' on the website - just couldn't fucking help themselves embellishing the girls jeans could they?!

There is something to be said for wearing clothes sometimes you don't like.

I was quite a tomboy and hated girly things, and mostly my mum indulged me, but one year she got me a very very pick snowsuit which I hated. But she was a single mum, money was tight, and it was half off and as warm as any other colour, so I wore it, and it didn't kill me or ruin my life or really have any effect.

It's not a bad lesson, about waste and thrift at the least, and maybe about how much weight to put on clothes and style. Something that some of these people who think what clothes you like indicate your inner essence need to realise.

I suspect there is something to the idea that markers for sex in terms of clothing etc have a function of sorts in a sexed species. I think there was some sort of study which said that cultures with little difference between the lives of men and women tend to have more of those kinds of cultural markers. Those kinds of studies need to be taken with a grain of salt but its interesting.