I didn't think I cared...

[multivac]

...too much about toilets. My opinion has always been that people have been using the bathroom they feel most appropriate for them since forever, and that's fine.

But the other day, I took my teens to a KFC, and the bathroom set up consisted of three lockable cubicles, with floor to ceiling doors, one labelled with the usual 'woman' silhouette (although she was wearing a tie, for some reason), one with a 'man' silhouette (in similar tie), and one with a silhouette of a wheelchair user.

So far, so fine. But all three cubicles were behind a single, heavy, unlockable door, with joint access to handbaisins. And I was surprised - shocked, even - by how incredibly vulnerable and anxious this made me feel within the locked cubicle. I'm at a loss to understand the thinking behind this set up. Given that the cubicles themselves are clearly segregated, it's hardly a 'unisex' approach, and I'm really struggling to work out what the intention is. Box ticking? Virtue signalling? Space saving?!

Is there anyone who would feel better about this arrangement than, say, unisex cubicles with handbaisins, opening directly onto the restaurant floor?

Space saving?!

I suspect that saving space and expenses by only offering mixed sex facilities is a factor when (probably mostly male) groups meet in boardrooms or wherever to make these kinds of decisions. Maybe some of them welcome wokism as excuse to cut costs without suffering on the PR front.

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Maybe some of them welcome wokism as excuse to cut costs without suffering on the PR front.

That is what I think too cookie. I personally think a row of cubicles with floor to ceiling doors and handbasins are fine. They need to be wide enough to allow eg parents or carers to accompany anyone who needs assistance. This should have been the campaign: better provision for everyone, not making an unsatisfactory situation for women worse.

Where was this? KFC said the one in Stoke was a mistake and they've rectified it

Are cubicles allowed to open directly onto the restaurant floor?

I had the same reaction the first time I used a mixed sex toilet. There are lots where I live. More used to it now, though it’s still unpleasant to come out and find a man at the sink, which suggests the only reason I feel more used to it is that I haven’t encountered too many men in there as it’s normally quiet.

I thought the law was that there must be a room between toilet cubicles and restaurant/bar rooms.

I hate floor to ceiling lockable cubicles, do they lock fully or do they have a mechanism to allow the door to be unlocked from outside? I've let myself into occupied toilets many times using either the slot that allows them to be opened or by climbing over partitions. I've rescued students passed out from alcohol, heroin addict needing resucitation and my DD when she gets stuck with either the door or just general toilet stuff So either doors are able to be opened in which case I don't want mixed sex facilities or they are unable to be unlocked or climbed into and they are putting anyone vulnerable locked inside at risk.

I'd rather not say where it was; but it wasn't Stoke. And it was a small site.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there needs to be a room between cubicles and a restaurant. But does it have to be one that potentially shuts a woman and an unknown man behind a really heavy, solid door together? Even a stable door would have been better...

I hate typing this. I'm not scared of 'men', as a rule, and I have zero experience of unwanted attention beyond the usual everyday sexism. This was the middle of the day, in a busy restaurant, with my kids the other side of the door. And yet, I'm still feeling uncomfortable about it now. Maybe it's me?

It's not you. Most women feel the same.

I hate typing this. I'm not scared of 'men', as a rule, and I have zero experience of unwanted attention beyond the usual everyday sexism. This was the middle of the day, in a busy restaurant, with my kids the other side of the door. And yet, I'm still feeling uncomfortable about it now. Maybe it's me?

I would feel uncomfortable too, it's a social change brought in without women being consulted.

Imagine how those who have been assaulted by men feel.

It’s definitely not just you. I would say that most women feel the same.

I did not think I cared, either. When I first heard of the bathroom issue in news stories from the US (many years ago) I was all, "meh, who cares? Just let people use the flippin' bathroom!" I look back on that now and think what a lovely, innocent time it was. I was care-free, skipping through fields of daisies.

And yet, I was someone who had been victim of quite a bit of fetishistic and other unwanted sexual behaviour. Three cases of flashing that I remember. One of unwelcome (of course!) frottage. Almost raped at a bus stop late at night; happily, the bus arrived. Sexually assaulted by my uncle. I swam through those waters growing up and still my first thought when asked about allowing everyone into women's washrooms was basically, "they are there to pee, get over it." That is called female socialization. I am SO over that.

Women don't generally flash their cunts. As far as I know they don't rub up against random women in public for sexual pleasure. I am not worried that a woman at a bus stop will rape me. My Aunt never sexually assaulted me. So really it is wise to keep men who might be fetishists or rapists, and people who are transwomen and so retain male patterns of violence and sexual idiosyncrasies, out of women's spaces. Because seriously, it's bad enough what goes on in public spaces.

The difference between theory and practice is telling, as is the power of female socialisation.
I was in a women's toilet in a busy college and a young man was in there too messing about and irritating the female students. Because he could. I felt massively uncomfortable and strangely vulnerable. My sense of powerlessness was profound.

A young friend is at a woke university where all the loos are mixed-sex. She was supporting this (she is a kind and rather vulnerable lesbian) on the basis that 'some men are born in the wrong body' and how very hard their lives must be. I asked her how SHE felt about being in a toilet, maybe on her own, with a male or males. She'd obviously never thought about her feelings before but said, eventually, that it made her anxious and, yes, she would prefer female-only loos. No-one has bothered to ask her, or me, however.
It's male privilege in action.

I was in a women's toilet in a busy college and a young man was in there too messing about and irritating the female students. Because he could. I felt massively uncomfortable and strangely vulnerable. My sense of powerlessness was profound

Man in woman's toilet? What? Why? Or should I refer to the Rules of Misogyny? Can't find a relevant one...possibly just the wine...I know there is some reason somewhere why women should be allowed their own spaces. Must just give my head a shake

The KFC loo design was probably to save space, rather than wokeness, as putting individual sinks in all cubicles would have meant the cubicles needed to be bigger, then there couldn't be that space separating the cubicles from the restaurant.

But, unlockable doors?? Really? How can anything tell if someone's in there already? That's just nuts.

No, the cubicle doors had locks. The main door, of course, didn't.
I'm glad I didn't need to rinse my menstrual cup that day.

It's not just you. I didn't think I cared all that much a few years back and then I realised that I really really do.

I was in the queue for similar toilets just recently when the woman next to me said, in hushed tones, that she hated these type of toilets. And once I told her I agreed, she admitted she was afraid to even say it out loud because she was afraid I would scold her for bigotry.

So not only do women feel uncomfortable but we've been made to feel uncomfortable even saying that we're uncomfortable.

I was so disappointed when a favourite cafe bar I used to frequent changed their toilets to mixed. The former mens is signed "urinals" (so still exclusively for men), and the former ladies is for anyone who wants a cubicle. Not floor to ceiling - standard cubicle with gaps. I realised when taking my daughter to the toilet that I couldn't bend down to help her and close the door as the cubicles are too small. So any man can walk in while I have my daughter exposed on the toilet. Additionally toilets are in a basement round a corner, pretty secluded. Hadn't encountered a problem before as we'd been using the baby change, upstairs in the disabled toilet. I doubt I'll be returning.

These kinds of toilet set up are supremely annoying. I used to let our girls (13 and 8) go to the loo together in a restaurant - now I don’t.

I’m reading ‘The Coddling of the American Mind’ at the moment and desperately wish I could give them more freedom, not less.
At 13 I could go shopping with my mates and try stuff on in Chelsea girl, but with no sex serration in current teen favourites like Primark and Topshop, it’s online shopping for them!