If sex and gender are different why do we use the same words for them?

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This came out of a conversation at work.

"She's a girl"

"Why can't you respect that she identifies as a boy?"

"Because she's not a boy, she doesn't have a penis"

"you're talking about sex not gender"

"So what is gender? Why use the same words as sex?"

It's the heart of the problem. We're using words in such a way that allows nonsense to appear meaningful.

The guardian recently had an article about dick pics. A woman started researching and received lots more diverse images "women with penises". That phrase only works if you use "women" to mean gender identity whilst referring to the actual sex parts of a man.

They don't want a good faith discussion. They just wanted to shut you down.

Absolutely this - they know when they are losing

What do you do on online forms that don’t let you proceed any further if you don’t answer the “gender” question? Some of them are things I really need to apply for/fill in so can’t just not send them.

In my case these are usually companies/government forms wanting information from me and so often come attached to an email.

If there is no option to leave gender question blank then I respond to the email stating that I will not complete it because it asks about gender not sex and I find that offensive since my religious beliefs are not relevant/private or, as is often the case now, not asked about properly (more frequently finding forms ask gender but no tick box for jew/muslim/sikh etc).

As far as I can see genderism is a belief system therefore should be treated like any other religion and not used in place of a question of sex.

I appreciate there are forms that must be completed regardless, these sometimes have a blank box somewhere for "any other comments" where the point can be clearly made. Pick your battles but do battle, you are entitled to an opinion on yourself!

Absolutely this - they know when they are losing

Very few TRAs I've come across appear to like arguing with gender critical feminists. I suspect because they can't, and it's all too invalidating for them. They tend to block you. it's mainly the allies and of them mostly the men, that I argue with.

Oh another form filling argument is the question of age - a scientific fact not to be flim flammed.

If you can't fill in the age box with "yoof", "silver fox", "30ish", "millenial", "gen x" or "boomer" why would it be acceptable to complete a gender box in place of sex?

We already know that feedback works to change these systems, that is how sex became erroneously replaced with gender, so we need to feedback as often and as annoyingly as possible to get reality back in charge.

If you can't fill in the age box with "yoof", "silver fox", "30ish", "millenial", "gen x" or "boomer" why would it be acceptable to complete a gender box in place of sex?

Good point!

The substitution of the word gender for sex has been insidious and deliberate over the last few years. It is appearing in official paperwork and online forms, including medical records, employment applications and so on.

It has appeared because "inclusive" and so as not to offend.

Harmless enough thinks form maker.

It's appearance has excluded me and offended me.

Form maker needs to know that is the harm.

I don't think gender and gender stereotypes are the same thing. How err outdated of me

I support homesexuals' rights not to be homogenderal

"Why can't you respect that she identifies as a boy?"
"Because she's not a boy, she doesn't have a penis"
"you're talking about sex not gender"

Thing is, this makes no sense whichever definition you use. Gender is either a synonym for sex or a term for the societal stereotypes which surround sex.

You can't have a gender distinct from your sex.

What Genderists have done in the last 5 years is used the confusion around the two meanings to create a third meaning, and pretend that things have always been this way.

What Genderists have done in the last 5 years is used the confusion around the two meanings to create a third meaning, and pretend that things have always been this way.

Exactly this.

Linguistic sleight of hand.

I don't think gender and gender stereotypes are the same thing. How err outdated of me

The problem is that the word has so many meanings now that it’s practically useless. Two people could be discussing gender & mean the opposite from each other.

Yes exactly. "I'm campaigning for better gender equality policies in the workplace" and "I'm campaigning for trans rights in the workplace" could be exactly the same statement.

Maybe we should take a leaf out of Sheldon's book and revive the word "coitus".

So -
GENDER - Masculine/Feminine

SEX - Male/Female

COITUS - that thing you do when you smush your naughty parts together

I like the Hardware/Software analogy BovaryX I might use that in future (although I have no idea who Douglas Murray is)

For the Gender/Sex thing I use WHO definitions from this glossary as it makes sense to me and the WHO are a recognised body.

www.who.int/gender-equity-rights/knowledge/glossary/en/

really recommend reading Douglas Murray on this issue

love the idea of reviving "coitus".

I don't have these conversations with acquaintances or colleagues because no one knows what anyone means.

The use of the word gender instead of sex was part of the queering of education that led to women's studies becoming gender studies. (*)

They indoctrination via university education then led to those students moving into positions of influence eg media. There was a specific campaign to get NUJ to start using the word gender instead of sex, and also in fact sex work instead of prostituion. I am old enough to remember when it was normal to use the word sex when talking about people. So for instance with have Sex Discrimination Act (not sure how many decades ago that is).

With this campaign to twist words it then became easier to talk about "gender identity" as though it was the same as someone sex. Is it any wonder that school children, the sons and daughters of the brain washed 80s students are now genuine confused. Some of us grew up not being that comfortable with our female bodies but it was never ever thought or suggested should alter your body. Many women suffered because society imposed "gender stereotypes" on them because of their physical reality. But other women rebelled against it. Although 60s fashion can seem pretty silly now (it was then) a lot of it was about liberating women from horrible constricting garments that somehow at the same time said you should be embarrased by your breast but should flaunt them. Getting rid of stockings and girdles and going braless were political!

So we all need to be vigilent about language but also be aware with have nearly 4 decades of a campaign of weasel words to undo.

Selina Todd's speech at the WPUK meeting is well worth a listen to.

As others have said she present as a socialist feminist historians what radical feminists were putting into action at the time! womansplaceuk.org/2019/05/21/feminism-postmodernism-and-womens-oppression/

(*) Worth remembering that long before baby Owen joined the Guardian its editor (a woman) stated that her queer politics informed everything she did.

So we all need to be vigilant about language

Yes we do

Sex (the having of and biological)
Gender (masculine and feminine words in Latin languages)
Gender identity (no idea what is is really, I don't have one)
Personality
Intersex (although I prefer using DSD as intersex implies 'between sexes' which is not true and people I've spoken to from older generations confuse it with hermaphrodite and with wolk folk this leads to the inevitable clownfish/seahorse 'science')

...I also like the idea of reviving coitus!
Definitions of words are key and that's why I love the simplicity of Standing for Women campaign:Woman=Adult Human Female.

We all get to choose what word we use so I don't use gender, I cross it out on forms and replace it with sex, I ask for clarification when people use it in conversation.

I blame queer theory and the 'queering' of language for a large part of how we got here, even the word queer means something else now and once gay meant joy/joyful (not that I care, just an example of how words change meaning).

My favourite Guardian Women headline ever has to be "Who Needs a Man when you have an Electric Screwdriver"

Down hill since they dropped the page.

Intersex (although I prefer using DSD as intersex implies 'between sexes' which is not true and people I've spoken to from older generations confuse it with hermaphrodite and with wolk folk this leads to the inevitable clownfish/seahorse 'science')

I definitely think we should stick to DSD. Most DSDs are not intersex in any meaningful sense, which allows TRAs to completely muddy the stats. Most teens I ask (there is a reason, I'm not doing a survey of random teens) still imagine that intersex means simultaneous hermaphroditism (which doesn't occur in mammals).

I think we've ended up with a situation (in no small part due to deliberate misinformation) in which a lot of people imagine several percent of humans secretly have incredibly rare, or nonexistent, conditions and that this is the basis for the demand for 'trans rights'.

Intersex is not used by the NHS because of the confusion and potential for offence.

I like to think of sex = noun - what your are, biologically
Gender= adjective, how you feel.

Let's just keep those things separate.

I don't recall people being coy about the word sex when I was growing up.

Forms asked your sex, we talked of sexism, sexist stereotypes, sex discrimination.

I only remember gender being used in the context of gendered languages when I was learning French.

I still find use of the word gender when people mean sex weird and it doesn't enter my head to use it myself. Not sure when it crept in but on another thread a poster was surprised that sex was the normal word not long ago as she had grown up with gender being used. She is 25, I'm 45 so something changed in the 90s/noughties.

Coy-tus, or Co-it-Us?

I've been told off here before for saying this but this thread feels like supporting evidence

Academics really screwed us over. Not all of them, but a lot of them.