Had to use a male bathroom which called itself 'gender neutral' - seeking legal advice!

[annalouiseadams]

Hi guys, I'm active on Twitter under @annalouiseadams but haven't used mumsnet before. I recently went to a music venue in London which didn't actually have any female toilets - it was 'gender neutral' which was essentially a male bathroom. I've written a brief statement below - am seeking anyone who could offer me any legal advice / expertise / experience in this area as I would like to challenge this. I wrote a review on their Facebook page and here is a link to the review and their response: www.facebook.com/AnnaLouiseAdams/posts/10156817578880098?notif_id=1573491952451634&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic

My statement is below:

On Saturday 9th November 2019, I attended an event at Peckham Audio on Rye Lane. Upon entering the venue I realised that the toilets were presented as ‘gender neutral’. When I first went to the toilet I realised that the toilet space was comprised of an open urinal area, and a number (3-5?) of stalls / cubicles (although these cubicles were not fitted with doors reaching from floor to ceiling height). As the evening went on, I continued using the toilets. Possibly the 3rd or 4th time I used the facilities, I had gone into a cubicle and as I was preparing to leave, heard a group of 3-4 males enter. They were using the urinals and proceeded to consume drugs (I could tell because of the specific sniffing sound associated with the consumption of drugs such as cocaine or ketamine). This lasted around 10 minutes, whereby I was stood in the stall making as little noise as possible, whilst they openly consumed drugs and engaged in loud and intimidating conversation. I felt frozen in the cubicle and was scared to even get my phone out of my bag as I did not want them to become aware of the fact that I was in a cubicle. I stood upright without moving for around 7 minutes before I decided it was safer to move further back into the cubicle and move my feet out of sight from the gap at the bottom of the cubicle. The remaining three minutes I maintained the same position whilst using my nose (as opposed to my mouth) to breathe which ultimately left me in a state of hyperventilation. Eventually they left, and I finally felt comfortable to leave. I didn’t use the facilities again. When I eventually was able to leave the cubicle I found my friends and recounted my experience - there are at least 4 (possibly more) friends who I spoke to about my experience who could vouch for the fact that I spoke about this experience soon after it happened in detail.

Sorry for the long statement but want people to know what happened before offering their help - please advise if you can - I don't want any woman to experience what I did.

I can't offer legal advice but I would ask the venue if women's toilets were available and if not why not? Are they aware of the EA2010? Have they done a risk assessment before making the change (assuming they previously had Male/female facilities) and who is their insurer and have they been informed?

Legally I understand we are to expect facilities based on our sex and that disabled loos should be provided where possible.

(I do wish we could be campaigning for more/better disabled loos)

Anyway, someone will be along in a minute to say no one made you use that toilet and nothing happened anyway so what are you worried about...

I'm sorry you had that experience OP. I'm not sure what I would have done but I would have been terrified.

I haven’t investigated it but for me it would seem to be sex discrimination; by not providing separate female toilet facilities they are discriminating against women who would feel unsafe, or otherwise unable to use mixed sex facilities. The discrimination wouldn’t be about the toilets but the ability to use the whole venue itself.

Who was it we had wittering on here that this would never happen and 'gender neutral' would mean floor to ceiling contained lockable rooms?

Everything women said would happen has happened. People were lining up to tell them they were being stupid/ instigating moral panic/ blah blah blah - and exactly what was predicted has happened.

Anyway. Practical upshot. May be worth looking up some of the prominent people like the minister for women (don't make me laugh) over the past year or two and quotes from them. Because I'm sure they swore this would not happen. And then involve your MP. And any newspaper you can get to listen to you.

We're reaching the point where women are going to have to raise caine about this.

That sounds incredibly scary. I don't have any advice, only sympathy OP.

Anna, perhaps ask for help from these wonderful people; morningstaronline.co.uk/article/labour-activists-launch-declaration-women%E2%80%99s-sex-based-rights

I'm sorry this has happened to you.

Cubicles in mixed sex toilets are supposed to be self contained (ie have a sink and a sanitary bin), and have floor to ceiling walls with a lockable door.
Urinals are supposed to be round a corner or behind a partition.

www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/toilets.htm

A gig where men have been drinking and dabbling in drugs sounds like an exceptionally risky place to have mixed sex toilets.

I saw your post on twitter OP - horrible experience for you.

Companies/venues seem to be under the impression that gender neutral is the most "inclusive" way forward - but it's so far from being inclusive when it disregards the comfort and safety of women.

I hope you can get some legal advice - as far as I can tell, people are being told that is "discrimination" to not allocate toilets/changing rooms according to gender identity, rather than biological sex (see Jean Hatchet's conversation with M&S) - as far as I am aware, this is incorrect. Places are allowed to exclude transwomen under the Equality Act Exemptions - eg womwn's sports, rape crisis, toilets and changing rooms. They are all just going down the gender neutral route for simplicity - and never mind what women think or need.

I’m sorry.

But using your nose to breathe rather than your mouth made you hyperventilate?

We breathe out of our nose.....

Maybe Fair Play for Women could advise you? They are well-connected and keen to challenge sexism of this type, especially when dressed up as inclusiveness. Hope you are able to get things to change. Thanks for putting your head above the parapet.

Hi Anna - sorry, I can't help with legal recourse but I saw your tweets about this and posted them here on this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3741560-Where-can-we-be-safe

I'm sorry this venue let you down so badly. It's not right.

So The venue is saying women are just supposed to be fine seeing exposed penis if they need to use the facilities?

Yeah FairPlay ladies could help

Report this to the relevant liquor licensing board for the area. It's a department of the Council. The drug taking obviously breaches their licence and the toilet arrangements do too.

@Joerev I was breathing out of my nose to make less noise than I would have done breathing out of my mouth. Thankfully you have never had to do the same.

If they serve alcohol then who issues that license? I'd take this to that body for starters, maybe a threat to have their license to serve booze pulled for not being in compliance with the law (even if you think gender neutral toilets are OK that's not how they're meant to work) will push them into taking some sort of action that's not a non apology and a pat on the head.

That's awful.
No advice other than the above.

This makes me so angry.
So now we go to gigs or clubs or concerts and we have no way of knowing in advance which venues provide single sex facilities for women.

We are then left with no choice but to wade in to spaces with open urinals, with groups of men, with alcohol and drugs in the mix....wonderful.

@annalouiseadams

I have had to do that unfortunately. Many tines when I was a young child. It’s worse when you’re a child who has to do that. Way worse...

I'd lose the nose breathing bit, it sounds silly. Do you mean mouth? I always breathe out of my nose only. Anyway, as for the rest, really shit. Was there a former women's toilet that had been relabelled inclusive that you could have used? I find it hard to believe that the venue has always only had a male toilet with urinals.

That's a good way to approach it ime. I visit a venue for work where both the male and female toilet have been relabelled gender neutral and everybody just ignores it and carries on as normal - men go in the original mens one with urinals, women go in the original woman's.

Not an ideal solution of course to the ridiculous wokeness, especially if you are new to the building and dont know which was the original women's, but not a bad way to deal with these retrospective gender neutral toilets. All existing buildings legally must have had both originally. Newly built buildings generally have the individual floor to ceiling cubicles with sinks I think which aren't as dangerous I dont think.

Apologies, when I first read your initial comment I thought that you were being sarcastic by saying “I’m sorry” because of the rest of your comment, and thought you didn’t believe what I was saying / was trolling. I got my words mixed up when talking about hyperventilation. For some reason it made sense in my head, sorry. I meant I had to actively try to make as little noise as possible to breathe which made me feel more stressed which in turn led me to hyperventilate when I did get out of the bathroom. Thanks for pointing out that that wasn’t clear.

That makes much more sense, and horrible to feel intimidated by a bunch of blokes. All.been there I'm sure! The ladies toilets always were and should be a refuge from that, or failing that, safe private cubicles.

I know this isn't the point but I do get what you mean about the breathing. When we are scared it's easy to end up hyperventilating - it's a natural response because our body wants us out of there, running. Combatting that requires attention to a long, slow, deliberate out breath - much easier through the mouth but also noisier.

What a terrifying position for you to be in OP. Loud groups of men often have no idea how intimidating they are if you are caught in an enclosed space with them. That's their male privilege right there. Women have no real way of telling who is an abuser and who is not, but men who overstep small boundaries are a red flag for also overstepping large ones. This was (wrongly) a space shared between the sexes but those men paid no consideration to the fact women might be in there.

If this all goes to the extreme and we stop going to pubs, clubs and gigs etc, how will we make friends and meet new people let alone meet someone to date?

Hi Anna Louise,
Nic Williams from Fair Play For Women here. I'll DM you about this.

Have the venue responded?