Break it down for me, GE edition

[jamrollyolly]

I was thinking how helpful it would be to have a GE special thread. If we could organise the main parties views and actions, it could help lurkers like me to articulate why we would or wouldn't vote for a party, or at all.

Lots of things get referred to, and I'm often not clear what happened, or at least not clear enough to explain to someone else.

For example, I hear, "I couldn't vote for Labour after Brighton", or references to being a non-man in the eyes of the greens. I seem to remember that the lib dems said those who didn't believe TWAW weren't welcome even before this week, but I lack detail.

And who was it that could see souls again?!

More

'I couldn't vote for Labour after Brighton' refers to the recent Labour Party conference. WPUK held a meeting in Brighton that week and women attending were harassed and threatened throughout. The following day at the conference a speaker condemned the meeting (not the harassment) to widespread applause while another speaker who tried to say women had a right to meet without intimidation was boo'd and jeered.

The leadership said nothing.

It was a watershed moment for me.

I can't post the Telford Women's Officer go suck my lady line.

Dawn Butler, Jezza Corbyn, Neale Gibson, Gregor Fisher Murray, The Challenors.

That should be "go suck my big lady c**k'

I have no idea what a lady line is or why my keyboard liked it so much....

The Young Greens also tweeted a hideous tweet about burning. I can't remember what it was but it was in regard to burning churches and t*s.

Oh, I forgot Helen Belcher

www.pressgazette.co.uk/activist-loses-ipso-complaint-against-janice-turner-times-column-about-trans-suicides/

I am in Brighton Kemptown and will not be voting for my local MP, Lloyd Russell-Moyle, who I had helped campaign for in the last GE when I was a member of the Labour party. This is due to correspondence I had with his office on the issue of preserving same-sex spaces and protections for women, and also a face-to-face meeting I had with him last summer when the GRA consultation was ongoing.

When I get a minute I'm happy to post my letters, his responses and notes of the face to face meeting I had so other women in his constituency can read what his take on trans rights versus women's rights.

Okay so here's my email to him and his office's response- this was correspondence from Spring/ Summer 2018:

^Dear Lloyd

I am writing to ask for your views on Labour’s support for the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act to allow self-ID for trans-identified people.

These proposed changes have the potential to seriously compromise the safety of both women and transwomen. It would allow anyone to self-declare their gender at any time and thus gain access to single-sex spaces which are badly needed to segregate us from men for our safety and dignity.

The lengths that dangerous, predatory males will go to, to harass, intimidate and assault women and transwomen alike are already staggering. At the GRA stands now, if a woman finds a man in a women-only area, she can demand that he leaves. If Self-ID becomes enshrined in law then the woman will have no right to have him removed, as he can insist that he identifies as a woman and is entitled to be in a space designated for females.

To be clear, I’m not talking about the majority of transwomen, who simply want to live their lives and be happy. However, the rights of the trans community should not come at the expense of the rights and safety of natal women and girls, who make up 52% of the population.

Women need single-sex spaces for a reason, and their effective loss will have huge consequences for those most vulnerable: the young, prisoners, patients, those fleeing violence, women from religious groups that require sex-segregation, and those who have suffered trauma.

The proposed change to the GRA will give male predators a chance to seize upon Self-ID as a ‘get out of jail free’ card which allows them access women’s spaces without challenge. It will open the door for sex offenders to self-ID and demand transfer to a women’s prison, where they will have access to incarcerated women with nowhere to escape them. It will erase male crimes, as if the accused ID’s as female, the crime will be reported as being committed by a woman. It will allow male-bodied people, with little or no experience of “living as a woman” to apply for places on women’s only shortlists and compete in women’s sport against natal women. All of these things are already happening and Self-ID will only make them worse and more prevalent.

I believe there should be a review of how the exemptions in the Equality Act which allow for single sex services or requirements that only a woman can apply for a job are being applied in practice. I also want the Government and Labour to consult with women’s groups on how self-declaration would impact women-only services and spaces; and on how self-declaration will impact upon data gathering – such as crime, employment, pay, and health statistics – and monitoring of sex-based discrimination such as the gender pay gap.

Aside from the proposed changes to the Act itself, I am also concerned at the way concerns about it are being treated by the Labour party.

Thousands of women and many transwomen want respectful and evidence-based discussions on the ramifications of changes to the GRA and other transgender issues, however any concerns we raise are being labelled as transphobia and our views are being silenced by censorship, trolling and harassment. I would like to know what your opinion on this matter is.

Kind regards

WOMAN WHO HAS A NAME WHICH IS VERY EASY TO SPELL^

His reply (note: all spelling mistakes are from the original emailed reply):

*Dear MISSPELLED FIRST NAME

The Tory Party suggest to change the GRA and have opened a consultation on such a thing. Labour supports this act. There is a serious debate to be had to stop abuse such as actually requiring people to live in the said gender.

But most estimates put 1% of the population as trans of which 9 in 10 will attempt to commit suicide, of which half will face homelessness and most will leave 10 years younger than the rest of the average population.

This group is one of the most under represented and down trodden groups in Britian today and we must first come from supporting the lives and preventing the deaths of these men and women.

It is trans men and trans women who are every Day abused, trolled and attacked at much higher numbers than other women and there abusers are predominantly male.

They face rape three time higher than other women and agin their perorates are Male.

They are a group to which any good feminist must show solidarity.

Labour has since 1994 allowed self identifying women to stand on all women short lists, there has been exactly no that’s 0 cases of abuse of that system until some trans-haters whipped up by the right wing media started to “raise the alarm” and now there have been one case of it happening of which the party immediately suspended the man pretending to be a women because whilst he might self ID he clearly self ID only to gain a privilege which is against the rules of self ID and brought the party into disrepute. This one example in over 20 years with the idiot suspended within a week shows that self ID is not only not an issue it’s policing is proportionate, and acceptable.

As for other sex spaces (I say sex because I think that’s what you talk of - biological sex as apposed to gender which is assigned and irrespective but often assigned aligned to the biological sex) again there are so few cases that campaigners have had to scrape the barrel of cases which even when they are raised were properly dealt with.

I totally agree that a proper discussion is needed about evidence - that evidence is that almost no trans men or trans women have used their positions to be abusers, that it would be totally unacceptable to expect someone passing off as a man who was born as a female (man/women = gender, male/female = sex) to use the women’s only spaces. A person who might have lived for 10 years plus as a man, but not got the “certificate” who receives all the privilege as a man should not be able to claim they are a women because of a fluke of the genetics lottery.

I’m sure many women like yourselfs are not haters, bigots or transphobic and I totally condemn anyone who calls you that but I do explore you to base arguments on evidence not hypotheticals and myths about GRA.

Yours

Lloyd Russell-Moyle*

OMG that is utter gibberish! (and the stats quoted are even more nonsensical than the usual ones). Do you think he wrote it himself (and if so, how the heck did he ever get elected?) or got some woke assistant to write it for him and didn't bother to check it himself? I am quite in awe at just how bad it is.

It's shameful, isn't it? I don't know if he wrote it himself or if it was one of his staff but it is definitely representative of his views and knowledge. I need to dig up the meeting notes- he is unbelievable.

I did reply to the above email- this was my response to him. I got no reply to this message, which is when I booked a meeting face to face to discuss further:

Dear Lloyd

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my email regarding your views on the Government’s proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

In your reply, you cited alarming statistics regards transpeople: the rate at which they attempt suicide (you mentioned 90%), reduced life expectancy (10 years less than the average), rates of homelessness (50%) and rates at which they are victims of rape (3x times that of natal women).

As acknowledged, I’m interested in a proper, evidence based discussion. Therefore I’d be grateful if you could provide the sources of these harrowing statistics. They’re deeply troubling and suggest that radical reform is needed in the areas of mental health services, healthcare, housing and criminal justice in order to ensure transmen and transwomen are given sensitive, bespoke assistance according to their needs.

However, I’m disappointed you didn’t address my concerns regards the safety of women and girls (as in, possessed of XX chromosomes, produce female gametes) and the potential for self-ID to compromise it. You stated “there are so few cases that campaigners have had to scrape the barrel of cases which even when they are raised were properly dealt with {sic}.”

I and many women like me see this as less a case of scraping the barrel and more a case of the first snowflakes in a blizzard. I’m sure any good MP appreciates a thorough, evidence-based reply to their assertions, therefore I shall reiterate my specific points regards women and girls’ safety, and ask that you respond to them.

1. Gender-inclusive changing room policies provide an opportunity for males to self-ID as women and engage in activities including in-person voyeurism, installation of hidden cameras, and sexual assault. Do you think this is an acceptable risk for women and girls to face?

1. The impact of Self-ID on women-only frontline services is that they will discourage vulnerable women from using them, or make them feel unsafe, triggered and in danger when they do. In the case of women’s only shelters, self-ID will make the service users ripe for exploitation and violence at the hands of abusive men who will potentially be given a huge loophole for accessing victims who should be inaccessible. Do you think the principle of self-ID is worth the attacks these vulnerable women will face from men who will abuse these laws in order to abuse them?

1. Half of all prisoners who identify as transwomen are either sex offenders or category A prisoners. There are already transwomen in the female estate who have convictions for rape. In UK law, rape is a crime that involves penetration with a penis.

I do not dispute that transwomen and transmen are at great risk of harm in the male estate. However, do you think it is acceptable for women to be imprisoned with people who have penises, who are convicted sex offenders?

1. In September 2017, a woman requested a female nurse to perform her cervical smear test. Instead, the nurse was a visibly male transwoman, who claimed that they were not male. This distressed and embarrassed the patient.

If women cannot guarantee that we can see female nurses, midwives and doctors to carry out life-saving cancer screenings or perform intimate examinations, then we will be discouraged from attending our appointments. Do you think that situations like this will be more likely if self-ID becomes law, and if so do you think it is reasonable that women avoid attending screenings for cancer or STIs because they cannot be guaranteed a female healthcare worker if requested?

1. In England and Wales, there are around 1.3m Muslim women. They are an already vulnerable population who face racial and religious discrimination in their day to day lives. Their faith requires spaces segregated by biological sex, not gender identity- facilities such as female toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards and swimming sessions. Having access to such spaces allows Muslim women to participate more fully in daily life as members of our community. Do you think it is acceptable for Muslim women to be marginalised because their need for modesty around those of the opposite sex will not be appreciated or catered for?

1. Teenage girls already face pandemic levels of sexual assault in schools and colleges. 64% have experienced a sexual assault or sexual harassment in the past year. Sex segregation of children on overnight trips and in bathrooms is basic safeguarding, which Self-ID will undermine. It has the potential for exploitation by abusers. Do you think that safeguarding guidelines for schools and youth groups should be put aside in favour of treating a trans-identifying child as a member of the opposite sex, despite the potential hazards this presents for female children?

1. A 2011 study indicated that transwomen and transmen’s level of criminality is on a par with other members of their birth sex. If crime statistics are recorded to reflect gender, then it stands to reason that there will be a spike in the reported numbers of women being arrested, charged and convicted of serious crime, such as rape (a crime which by UK law requires a penis to carry out) and murder. This will skew statistics and make it seem as though rape is not, in fact, a male crime, where the victims are predominantly female.

Serious crimes committed by transwomen are often reported in the media as if they were carried out by biological females, which creates the impression that female people commit the same types of crimes as men, against other females. This is not the case and serves to disguise the true perpetrators of violence against women and girls: biological males. Do you think that crime statistics should reflect biological sex or an individual’s self declared gender identity?

1. Male and female competitive sports are sex-segregated for a reason. In virtually every sport, males have a physiological advantage over females. Testosterone gives males height, weight, muscle mass and larger hearts. Even a transwoman who undergoes full transition will retain these advantageous attributes, which will give them an upper-hand if they compete against biological women. Do you think it is fair for natal women to have to compete against male-bodied people in sports, which will rig the game against them? And why do you think there are no transmen competing and succeeding in male sports at the same rate that transwomen are in women’s sports?

1. Regards All-Woman Shortlists (AWS), I believe the “one case” you mentioned refers to David Lewis, who applied for the position of Women’s Officer in Basingstoke as he claimed to identify as a woman on Wednesdays. It is clear to me and many other women that Mr Lewis’ actions were inspired by the “Man Friday” campaign, where women are self-identifying as men to show how the concept of Self-ID is absurd and open to abuse. It is interesting that his application was initially accepted by his CLP before a media furore. He is a feminist ally and it saddens me that you castigate him when ignoring Lily Madigan’s history of misogyny.

Madigan, who took the role of women’s officer from female candidates despite being a documented misogynistic male until two years previously, set up a secret Facebook group to identify women who Madigan and friends felt were transphobic, in order to witch-hunt them out of the Labour Party. This is despite the fact that these “transphobic” women were, in fact, expressing concern on the impact the trans-rights movement would have on women and girls.

Do you think it is fair that in a less than sexually equitable political system, males such as Madigan and Eddie Izzard are being allowed to appear on AWS, which were created to address the sex balance in politics and give women better representation?

I urge you to champion “third space” options for trans-identified people, so they do not have to use the facilities of their biological sex, where they may feel unsafe. It may be the case that in Brighton there is a need for trans-specific rape counselling services and domestic violence refuges. If this is the case then trans people deserve these services. Please campaign for them, and also campaign for much needed frontline services for women to be retained and not risk being defunded because their services are not deemed “inclusive”.

Labour states as their aim on the home page of their website “We want to build a Britain that works for the many, not the few.” This is a noble aim, so it is puzzling to me that you seem to be advocating the right of “1% of the population” to access the segregated spaces of those of the opposite sex, as opposed to the rights of 52% of the population to have single-sex spaces for the sake of our privacy and safety.

Your dedication to the rights of the trans people in your constituency is admirable and laudable. I hope this desire to keep your constituents safeguarded extends to those of us who are biologically female as well.

Yours sincerely

BeardedVulture

BeardedVulture How the hell is this person an MP?! I don't even know where to start.

@BeardedVulture great emails from you. Your MP is a muppet!

Bearded, that piece of illiteracy was written by an MP? Where do these people come from? It’s beyond grim and beyond parody

BovaryX, to answer your question, Lloyd R-M was a new MP who won his seat from a Tory in the last election in a big swing to Labour (in the past is has been pretty marginal). He's young, very woke. He's the guy who was swinging the mace around in the House of Commons a couple of months back.

I hope the voters who swung from Tory to woke are happy with his performance

Lloyd Russell-Moyle's email makes him sound like an illiterate idiot.

( NOTE to MNHQ : Justine said it was ok to say 'Your post makes you sound like an arse' because then you're attacking the post, not the poster.)

These are my notes from the face to face meeting I had with him last summer. Anything in quote marks is verbatim:

I had a 20 minute appointment with Lloyd Russell-Moyle and his two assistants- one, an older woman and the other your typical Brighton hippie left wing type. I was in there for an hour.

He did most of the talking but I already knew that would be the case because his previous two appointments were women and I heard them being talked all over as well.

Firstly, he loves the sound of his own voice. Does. Not. Just. Shut. Up. Also, like a good politician, he managed to bibble on ad nauseum without addressing the fucking point- I talk about female prisoners being sexually assaulted by Karen White and suddenly he wants to talk about the wider problems in prisons. THIS IS NOT WHY I AM HERE. However he did seem surprised when I told him half of transwomen prisoners were category A or sex offenders so I slid the FairPlay for Women report at him.

SOME HIGHLIGHTS OF THE NEVER ENDING FUCKERY

1. He thinks there should be safeguards, or course... but then he envisages the process of changing sex legally should only be a little bit more difficult than applying for a passport or changing your name by deed poll. That’s right folks, just get two of your pervy friends to sign off on it (as long as they’ve got a good job) and it’s showers with the girls from here on it!

2. Pointing out most transwomen have penises on national television is horrible and makes trans people feel unsafe. Oh boo fucking hoo. You know what makes me feel unfucking safe? DICKS. IN MY FEMALE SPACES.

3. We’re working to get to a place where biology doesn’t matter. BUT IT ALWAYS DOES MATTER DOESN’T IT WHEN ONE OF US HAS BABIES, IS SMALLER AND PHYSICALLY WEAKER

4. Me: “women have an unpatchable security vulnerability- OUR VAGINAS” (thanks, Haxxor, for this rather lovely turn of phrase.)

5. Me: “So what’s the nastiest and most abusive thing someone has said to you, Lloyd, about your stance in this debate?”
   LRM: “Well, I don’t know about abusive. I’ve been called a misogynist and that I’m going to enable rape .”
   Me: “Oh, that’s terrible... so (consults bit of paper)... no one has told you that you should be fucked to death with a broken bottle? Because that’s what women who hold my point of view get told when we express our opinions.” crickets

6. “Men get raped too.” GOOD SWEET GODDESS GIVE ME STRENGTH

7. Me: “I do not understand why someone who was happy with a penis would feel like a woman and want to be in women’s spaces. I just don’t.”
   LRM’s Male Assistant: “That’s because you aren’t a Transwoman.”
   Me: “No. But I have been raped BY A PENIS which has somewhat coloured my view of having them in my vicinity.”

8. I asked about women’s sport. I asked about how it would be fair for women to compete against transwomen when their biology gives them an unfair advantage. He started off on Caster Semenya and then went on about how certain ethnic groups are better at running and we don’t segregate by race so why should we by biological sex? BY THE POWER OF GREYSKULL GET IN THE BIN!!!!

9. I said that it’s funny that there are campaigns to get sex segregated toilets in countries like India in an effort to reduce assault and we’re moving to facilities that will increase assault and then he came out with “Oh well they have self-ID in India with the hirija and it hasn’t increased assault” and then didn’t let me get a word in edgeways to point out a) INDIA IS THE RAPE CAPITAL OF THE WORLD SO HOW WOULD YOU NOTICE AN INCREASE AS A RESULT OF THIS b) INDIA IS A DEEPLY SEXIST, PATRIARCHAL SOCIETY AND HIRIJA ARE NOT SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO WOMEN.

10. I asked him what was to stop someone with a GRC and a dick going into women’s changing areas an exposing himself under the guise of getting changed. How will we know his intentions? How will women be able to confront that man? He didn’t have an answer for this.

11. Me: “Have you ever been flashed, Lloyd? Genuinely curious.”
    LRM: “Umm... yes, once, as a matter of fact.”
    Me: “And how was that for you? Because I find it quite disturbing and unpleasant.”
    LRM: “Yes, well, obviously with your history of sexual trauma that’s understandable.”
    Me: “No. It is a deeply violating and frightening thing for a woman to experience IN AND OF ITSELF.”

Jimminy fucking Christmas. Does he think that being flashed is only upsetting if you’ve had previous sexual trauma? Because in that case it should be just fine to flop it out in front of a playground full of 4 year olds.

12. He brought up Rachael Dolzeal. Apparently what she did was “morally wrong” but he didn’t seem to make the same fucking equivalence with people identifying as the opposite sex.

13. He gave me a load of POMO bullshit about how we keep dividing us into these little binary groups and that sex is “a spectrum” and I asked him why he thought girls had their genitals mutilated and female babies aborted and how that had fuck all to do with identity. I asked him why he thought women had been oppressed through all of human history and he just blustered past it all like Thomas the fucking Tank Engine.

14. He mansplained the Patriarchy to me. FUCK ME WE ARE IN THE UPSIDE DOWN.

However it wasn’t a complete waste of time as I managed to tell two members of the Rottingdean Bridge Club about this madness whilst I was waiting.

BeardedVulture

Just wow at the notes from your meeting. I thought the email was bad enough! And yes I can confirm being flashed/followed by a man with his anatomy hanging out is very disturbing (even not having been a victim of sexual assault)

So he is saying that as a black woman I am closer to trans woman than a woman and my race makes me 'run faster'.

Disclaimer - I did once win the sack race at school and came second in the egg and spoon.

So labour have announced free WiFi. Heard it on the radio within the same news bulletin:-

1. huge increase in calls to Childline to report sexual abuse

2, news story about pressure on food banks at Christmas with a reminder many children only eat during term and these same children will not get Christmas presents 3 thousands of homes will/are in process of being built in flood zones and will therefore not be covered by insurance 4 rise in bullying for young people through social media and lack of ability to police SM bullying

Great to see Labour tackling the big issues!

So he is saying that as a black woman I am closer to trans woman than a woman and my race makes me 'run faster'.

It's utterly fucking offensive, isn't it. He's not just a misogynist, he's a racist too.

Can I just say, though, I take my hat off to BeardedVulture - a magnificent letter and a magnificent account of your meeting with him even if you didn't manage to get a word in most of the time. I'm astonished you had the patience, to be honest.

By the way, has anyone else changed their view of politicians as a result of this TRA stuff? Unlike most people, I've never been one to dislike MPs as a class - I've always thought that a lot of them work very hard, serve their constituents well and are pretty intelligent and well-informed. Since I've become interested in self-ID, however, I have become absolutely gobsmacked at how thick a lot of them are, this Lloyd Russell-Moyle chap being a case in point, along with Layla Moran and others, not to mention Luciana Berger's abysmal performance on Today. They're not well-informed about the issue, they don't understand it when it's explained to them, and in the rare cases where they have understood it they're too cowardly to speak out. (The honourable exception being David Davies.) What a useless bunch.

CircleofWillis

So he is saying that as a black woman I am closer to trans woman than a woman and my race makes me 'run faster'.

I think what he was suggesting is that some ethnic groups/ nationalities are over-represented at elite levels in sport (eg Kenyans in long distance running) and we don't segregate sport according to race, so why should we because of sex differences?

Completely missing the point that if you pit an elite male runner against an elite female one, the male will almost certainly always win no matter what colour either of them are.

Bump

Thanks for the bump Straighners! Amazing letter Bearded Vulture and good question, ( sorry I can only keep two usernames in my head but can't go back to check yours without loosing my post) has anyone changed their MPs' mind?