Trans men and women as a distinct class

[Oncewasblueandyellowtwo]

Is it possible, Trans men and trans women as their own distinct category,class.
Imagine if trans women and men could be just that, transwomen and transmen, there are trans people on twitter who advocate for that.
Women could keep their own rights and a third space could be made for trans men and trans women or they could use the spaces designed for their sex.
Medical care designed for women must say women, and anyone xx, anyone with a cervic etc.
Shortlists for women are for women and anyone who is xx.
Female sporting catorgories: for women and anyone xx.
What is the problem with this? Would it protect women as a protected class and help trans people.
What do you think?

I'd be for it, but TRAs wouldn't, because it's all about validation and "passing".

They won't go for it. It's all about validation.

It’s the sensible course of action but TRAs won’t go for it.

As soon as you say “for women”, transwomen will say, well that’s fine because TWAW 🙄

I imagine the problem is that you're distinguishing groups of people based on their trans or non-trans status. I don't know how one would define that, for one thing, but I don't know if TW and TM see themselves as the same category for such purposes?

Yes, I've always been happy for third or even fourth spaces to be created. This is always how it has worked in countries such as India and other cultures that have a 'third sex.'

Would it be possible to lobby for 3rd spaces, could the lgb alliance do it? Instead of this back and forth between TRAs, could we campaign for a 3rd space. We shouldn't have too but what's the alternative? The TRAs have already made so much ground in the shadows lobbying.

I don't really care about the idea of third spaces, but I am not sure how this distinct class for trans people would work.

A class has to be defined in relation to other classes. Clearly they aren't a sex class.

Rad fems who think gender should be abolished clearly wouldn't want to talk about creating and making gender classes more ingrained. I differ in that I think gender is inevitable and not always bad, but I also don't see how you could create classes around it, because its not really amenable to such discrete categories. It would be like saying, lets create classes of people called jocks or nerds or goths. Let's create a special class of people who like to use particular pronouns? What's the point of that? How does it really reflect something important about people?

A nice rational solution. But the demand by trans-identified males / transwomen to use women's toilets isn't really about have a safe place to pee away from male violence. If it was, they'd be okay with using disabled toilets or other third options. They're not. (Although, #NotAllTrans, not at all.)

As others have pointed out, what they want is validation that they're "women."

As in the classic case of insisting on counterfactual validation, not even the tiniest voice can say the emperor has no clothes because that brings the whole lie to light.

They wouldn't go for it for reasons expressed above.

As we know from M&S too, some men get off on being in women's spaces.

How can you define a space for an indefinable class?

This would never work as for most of the middle aged AGP ones, they are getting off on being in women's spaces and making women feel uncomfortable. And these are the ones with power, clout, money, establish bcareers etc, not the young confused teens who maybe are more genuine, or at least have less of a motive.

The problem I see is that we would then have two massive “classes” (male and female) and two tiny “classes”.

And it also ignores the reality that those two tiny classes fit into the larger class perfectly well, but wish they didn’t.

They are a subset of males and females, not a separate class. Campaigning for separate spaces is a separate issue, and potentially a good idea if it helps those who are genuinely distressed by using spaces that match their sex class.

Of course the loudest activists are highly aggressive with very male traits and it will annoy them, but if transsexuals were to make it known that would be of value to them, then I think lots of women would get behind them.

I think a better solution would be to separate out places where there's a genuine risk to TW and places that are about vanity. For risky situations there could be a LGBT space. I suspect prisons confer similar risks to gay men as they do to TW and that the type of domestic abuse and need for refuges is similar, with gay men less likely to be upset by their presence - a better fit than TW and women. That's what Stonewall should be doing.

As for vanity, if you want to keep women and TRAs shopping in your clothes shop, then there should be an anything goes space that is pushed as progressive and cool. Women's space left alone. I don't think a trans only space works as they feel outed, but a queer space/changing room? Maybe.

What might we think of providing loos/changing rooms etc in the categories of "Inclusive" vs "TERFs"? Any woman who wanted to demonstrate her wokeness could go and change with the blokes and women who understand science can have a women's space.

Though of course transmen would be welcome in the TERF loos. They'd probably feel safer there.

Yep. Sounds good to me. Gender neutral toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, hostels and refuges for those that are strongly in favour of that option.

With the provision that the rest of us, who are not comfortable sharing with the opposite sex, must have access to facilities segregated along traditional lines. The boring, old fashioned, human sex segregation that has been in use for millennia. The set up where those with Y chromosomes use the men's, and only those who do not have Y chromosomes are allowed to use the women's.

The people who insist it is impossible to know whether a person has
Y chromosomes or not shouldn't panic. Instead of being asked to show their genitals at the door, as they tend to suggest on Twitter, or being forced to pay for genetic testing, they just use the gender neutral facilities. Where they will be in the company of other users who feel the same way.

No stigma, no discrimination and everyone gets to pee next to the people in whose company they feel most comfortable emptying their bladders.

I'm sorry that I didn't respond on my own thread, this shit just gets me down sometimes and I have to step away. I've been taking to my partner about this for months and tonight he said oh well at least they don't have a penis in the ladies. Sigh, I've been talking about this for so long and my partner doesn't know most keep their penis, what hope do we have. He even said when I told him actually most do, that they could have a separate bathroom. Sigh fucking sigh and

Who was that mythical bloke in ancient who was condemned to push a big boulder up a hill for all eternity only to have it roll back down again as soon as he got it to the top?

Sometimes we need to step back, sigh and glug a large glass of something soothing. Or take the dog for a walk in the woods and try to train him to show us where the edible mushrooms are hiding. When you are cursed to live in interesting times it is good to have ways of restoring your equilibrium.

I found reading those tweets from the first day of the preliminary hearing of Maya Forstater's case very comforting. And those with spades are still able to help dig for victory.

don't think a trans only space works as they feel outed, but a queer space/changing room?

That's a good idea. But still not sure they'd go for it because it's all about the validation for most.

Who was that mythical bloke in ancient who was condemned to push a big boulder up a hill for all eternity only to have it roll back down again as soon as he got it to the top?

Sisyphus.

I hear you. Sometimes it does feel like that and I need to step away.