"Body positivity"

[quickkimchi]

Is anyone else very sceptical about 'body positivity'? As far as I can see the reason many women hate their bodies is because we're abused and controlled for being female, and then blamed for the abuse.

Not controvertial that you'd want to make peace with your feelings about your body btw, I understand why women are eager to put down that burden. But in the face of oppression, 'positivity' seems irrelevant and shifts responsibility back to women.

I also resent the way it centres women's value in beauty and sexuality. There seem to be a lot of parallels with sex positivity. Hardly revolutionary.

I'm sceptical of it too. I mentioned on the Jameela thread that I've heard her speak of "body neutrality", I much prefer that as a concept. Taking the focus off of appearance completely.

I also resent the way it centres women's value in beauty and sexuality. There seem to be a lot of parallels with sex positivity. Hardly revolutionary.

That's a lightbulb moment for me - especially with the links between "body positivity" and a cultish celebration of morbid obesity which is almost as dangerous as being "pro ana": the focus is still on looks - "let's redefine beauty so that it encompasses being 'curvy' too." It encapsulates what's been making me uneasy about this movement. It's still about the external male gaze in a very unhealthy way.

Rather than stopping and celebrating what the body can do, can accomplish, for the woman whose body it is, from the mundane to the insanely athletic, from the fine motor skills of arts and crafts to the strength of running an ultramarathon (if that's your bag).

I’ve never heard anyone say “Men can be handsome and sexy in all shapes and sizes.”

Ever.

Dave yes, that seems less sexualised, but I think that's equally suspect. It looks like it's a reaction to the various objections to the body positivity message, including making some room for women who are so deeply traumatised by misogyny that they find it impossible to accept themselves. I read an article that described it as "steer[ing] away from self-hate" which is a very low bar. My point is that our culture hates us, that's why many of us hate ourselves.
I mean, we all have a body, what does body neutrality actually mean and how does it change things? Patriarchy is the problem, all the positivity/neutrality in the world won't fix that.

Delirium yup.

Barbara frankly I want the privacy and dignity of just having my own physical body which is my own business, which doesn't need to be constantly discussed and assessed, celebrated or vilified. I'm actually in here, this is mine.

The argument around health (fatness, skinniness etc) is a red herring. It's surveillance.

"You don't have to be pretty to be sexy..... you just have to please men."

Yes it's mentioned a bit on this thread, I was perplexed by the use of the term.

Janice Turner V Munroe Bergdorf NSPCC www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3731177-janice-turner-v-munroe-bergdorf-nspcc

its occurring to me that women can be a bit rounder and wear pretty much what they want as long as with make up, the men can do and wear anything, including makeup, but generally also channel sexist stereotypes (I'm thinking of Sam Smith.)

And of course you can have a shed load of plastic surgery and hormones etc and this is also body positivity.

It's like the sex positive movement which afaik is basically porn hub with "consent" but obviously you're more cool the more pornhub you are, so basically coerced consent.

I think I agree. Whether it’s a negative or positive focus on the body - there’s just too much focus on it. On the way it looks anyway. I think positivity should be more of a celebration of what our bodies can do rather than what they look like e.g. sports achievement, giving birth, overcoming illnesses... I think that would be a great shift in body focus.

I think people need to learn to love themselves and have confidence regardless of how they look and how many people find them attractive.

Body positivity seems to be about gaining others approval and convincing others and themselves that they are attractive, desirable and sex objects.

We should be pushing for self love (perhaps phrased differently 😂) and part of loving yourself is caring for the body that you have - not eating yourself into an early grave and a life of pain, illness and discomfort.

Some good points made.
I'd like to add that it fails for me, because unlike feminist analysis, it does nothing to analyse or address why women hate their bodies in the first place.
So to me its just another completely predictable aspect of neoloberalism which pushes responsibility back to the individual, and therefore useless.

The sad thing is human bodies are amazing. Wonders of evolution. There is no other species with out fine manual dexterity for example. No other species that can throw as accurately as us for another.

I wish we heard more about the natural wonder that is the human body and what it can do.

There's an Instagram influencer called 'bodyposipanda' who's been annoying the shit out of me lately. Her feed is full of photos of her in her underwear. That's fine I guess, you could say it's showing larger women to be beautiful, although does it really do anything but objectify larger women under the guise of 'diversity'? Interspersed there are inspirational quotes that basically give the reader permission to be as lazy, unproductive, anti-social, unsuccessful etc as they wish and frames this as self acceptance. She also often posts on trans issues, one memorable quote being along the lines of 'if a trans person is threatened it's the job of cis women to step in and protect them', seemingly not seeing how sexist it is to expect women to take on other people's emotional labor for them. I agree with her on the evils of diet culture and I think for many they would see the very reasonable objections to this and think it mean to be critical of the rest. Total self acceptance isn't necessarily a good thing though, if it means making excuses for not making any effort. I'm not focussing on weight here, she talks about other subjects, although to be honest I don't think celebrating obesity and overeating as this influencer does is something to be celebrated at all. Overeating stems from psychological distress, getting to the route of that is surely better than celebrating binge eating. Healthy bodies of all ages, shapes and sizes and showing what they can do would be a better approach rather than lounging around in her bra and pants with a cupcake. She often also posts a 'reality Vs Instagram' stories where she reveals that actually, even though she was smiling in that photo of herself in her knickers, she was actually feeling really depressed. Inspirational...

...in fact I think the depression stems from her knowing deep down that her analysis hasn't gone far enough and what she's doing is a load of bollox. It's all very neoliberal too, selling a load of tat through ads.

Bodiposipanda annoys me cos it’s alright being fat when you’re shapely. It’s fashionable now to be “thick” (note, you don’t ever hear of men’s bodies being in or out of fashion). So she gets to eat ice cream etc and she looks ok cos she’s naturally curvy and curves are in.
If I put on weight it ONLY goes on my torso and I look absolutely horrific plus clothes don’t fit properly. If I weren’t an apple shape I could easily carry an extra stone but I eat ice cream maybe three times a year because for me it’s look like a boy vs look like a Terrys chocolate orange on two toothpicks

Inebriati exactly. This is what 'empowerment' means in this context:

• just love yourself
• just be powerful
• just don't get raped
• just hit bottom, redeem yourself and spread the story of how through sheer strength and empowerment and loving yourself you lifted yourself out of victimhood.

Haha Siam you just described my body!

wish we heard more about the natural wonder that is the human body and what it can do.

I feel like this too.
BEHOLD MY OPPOSABLE THUMBS!!
It's what I say to the dog when she's being a prat.
I heard once that the human ankle joint hasn't evolved for thousands of years- because perfection has been achieved.

Not just opposable thumbs but thumbs opposable to each finger individually.

Chimpanzees can't do that. And they can't throw for toffee either.

In your face chimps!

Body positivity is such a commercialised and watered down movement - it's built off the back of various other movements (including feminism, fat acceptance, disabled rights, health at any size) but with none of the analysis, and none of the threat to the status quo. It's all "empowering" nudity and snappy sellable slogans.

It's a shame because all the energy and attention wasted on it could be used more productively.

In your face chimps!

Very interesting points made. It's a reactive movement, I suppose. With conceivably a good intention, just missing the point somewhat.

I watched a clip of some programme on body positivity recently, with women stripping to their underwear, blindfolding themselves, and asking strangers to draw hearts on their bodies.

It really made my stomach drop - this thread has articulated exactly why. It's literally begging for acceptance from others, instead of taking it for yourself. Exposing oneself, risking oneself, in order to 'win' approval for yourself.

It's might be built on good intentions at first but it's turned into "let's sexually objectify fat women"

Dave yes, that seems less sexualised, but I think that's equally suspect. It looks like it's a reaction to the various objections to the body positivity message, including making some room for women who are so deeply traumatised by misogyny that they find it impossible to accept themselves . I read an article that described it as "steer[ing] away from self-hate" which is a very low bar. My point is that our culture hates us, that's why many of us hate ourselves.
I mean, we all have a body, what does body neutrality actually mean and how does it change things? Patriarchy is the problem, all the positivity/neutrality in the world won't fix that.

It's not something I've read into, only have seen that Jameela uses those words rather than body positivity. It doesn't get rid of patriarchy and I completely agree with your point there, but when I was a teen and in my early twenties I think hearing the idea that the appearance of my body is not an important thing would have been quite a revelation. I am probably close to being one of these though - "women who are so deeply traumatised by misogyny that they find it impossible to accept themselves". But realising that my body was functional and practical and not just something to be looked at has helped me to accept myself. That's what I took "body neutrality' to mean anyway, but as I said I've not read into it. My own road to self acceptance (I'm sorry that sounds so cringy but I can't think of better words) was more of an internal journey brought on by having a baby, breastfeeding, disability and an ex bf who was shocked to discover how much I hated myself. I haven't followed any "movements". Just a collection of things that have made me realise I have a body just like my cat has a body, and it's there to do things, and not to please others. It can't look "wrong", it just is what it is.

Scrimshaw yes, it's a weird combination of victimhood, vulnerability, 'empowerment' whatever that means and nakedness. I don't think it comes from a good problem-solving place though, there's no critical thought applied and it's very libfem.

Sorry, whoever thought up the heart thing (which frankly sounds like watered-down Yoko Ono Cut Piece) - I'm just lost for words. Some kind of bullshit about how displaying vulnerability is empowering or similar attention-seeking nonsense. I thought that thing where everyone was posting their un-made-up face (oh so much bravery) was devoid of content but that's just disturbing. Soft-focus faux feminism.