Trans actors should be playing not-trans roles

[jenthelibrarian]

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/oct/28/cast-more-transgender-actors-in-non-trans-roles-union-urges?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR12wKFUQQqKtC1NjcR9wnxfp9wPdfjWrISoBOWaqTl5jCv-LTR2NFUongY#Echobox=1572286540

“The fact that [a performer] is trans may be completely invisible in the role or production, but it powerfully represents diversity in the industry. This ‘invisible’ diversity is just as important as more physically recognisable forms of diversity.”

Really??

I don't think there should be any limits on who actors can play in roles, it's about whether they are convincing in that role. That will in most cases put certain limits on who can reasonably play a role, most people are not convincing in opposite sex roles as an example even with extensive make up and padding.

I think it's also worthwhile to try and hire actors from a variety of backgrounds just like it's generally a good thing to do that in other industries. But I wouldn't want to tell anyone that they always have to play people like themselves even though they would be convincing playing some other sort of person, and that includes actors of a particular sex, or gender presentation, or ethnicity, or anything else. I honestly can't think that any actor would be thrilled to be told he could only play trans characters, or Hispanic characters, or gay characters.

I googled straightaway when I saw the trans character in You. Hari Nef isn't convincing at all if HN is playing a woman.

There is a character in the OU as well who is trans, I didn't actually realise until it was mentioned but I had the sex correct.

The good girls has a trans storyline which is quite sad. It seems like it could go either way with that but they will probably go with positive.

@Pota2
"I think the passing thing is important though. Passing determines whether you are treated by society as a man or a woman. Someone like Blair White will be perceived to be a woman, unless someone knows the background. Someone like JY, Jane Fae, Jess Bradley etc really will not and will not experience the same treatment as those perceived to be female do. That’s why I find the TRA arguments that ‘sex is on a spectrum’ to be idiotic. It may be, but who cares? The point is that society divides between those it perceives to be male and those it perceives to be female. I could have hidden testes that I am unaware of but it wouldn’t matter because it wouldn’t change the fact that society saw me and treated me as a woman."

It does seem like many of them (that don't pass) just want the world to play along with their fantasy. There must be a solution where they feel comfortable in their own body and it doesn't require people being dishonest.

I know Julie Hesmondhalgh (Hayley from Corrie) slightly as we were both directors of the same charity a few years ago - she played Sophie Lancaster's mum Sylvia in the amazing drama Black Roses.

She's an absolutely brilliant actress & a seriously nice woman. I doubt she'd be cast in the Hayley role now, & I think that's possibly fair enough - you could certainly argue that it would be better to cast a TW who would a) be more physically convincing & b) could bring more lived experience to the role.

Generally, I think it's interesting to cast AGAINST physical appearance though - Patrick Stewart playing Othello with an otherwise black cast, anyone? Glenda Jackson as Lear?

Nothing wrong with a bit of reinterpretation to add a whole new set of nuances. Wouldn't work in soap, maybe, where the audience is already doing some heavy lifting to suspend disbelief re the entire population of a Yorkshire village living their entire lives in the local pub or whatever.

It's tricky, but I think I'm coming down on the side of yes it's valid for any actor to play any role...leave it to the director to justify incongruous casting. Sometimes it's incidental & sometimes it's a deliberate choice. Both are defensible positions.

I enjoyed (most of) You, but I can't support an underrepresented group having parts taken by the opposite sex.

It's tricky, but I think I'm coming down on the side of yes it's valid for any actor to play any role...leave it to the director to justify incongruous casting.

That kind of casting can be interesting sometimes, but for myself I've found it most successful when there really isn't any reason for it, except it's a community theatre group or something similar and they are just working with what they've got. Most times when I've seen it done for something experimental or to make some sort of point, I haven't enjoyed it much or connected to it - it becomes an intellectual exercise.

I was just thinking, one barrier that we don't tend to cross in these kinds of experimental things is age. They will push actors' ages in terms of believability in order to put who they want in a role, but you don't get the equivalent of the deliberately reversed cast in Othello or Taming of the Shrew - where Hamlet is clearly an old man and his mother is a young woman, for example.

Well, yes.

I'm a teacher & remember a particularly ebullient production of Grease by a colleague where Danny was played by a 15 year old girl just because there wasn't a lad who could sing or act as well as she could.

It looked decidedly unusual (she was a curvy lass, & the costume was thoroughly unflattering) but she was really, really good.

So that's a high school production where a leading male role went to a talented young woman because, in the limited pool of 14-16 year olds willing to put themselves forward, she was considerably better than the best of the boys.

Does that translate to theatre generally where you might blind cast an actor who doesn't have some/all of the attributes of the character?

I don't know.

But I can't see any reason not to cast trans actors in non trans roles. Or then, equally, non trans actors in trans roles. Or men as women - solid Shakespearean tradition there. Or women as men - feminist theatre tradition there too.

I do suspect there's a trans activist lens of 'only we can act as trans characters but ALSO how dare you say we can't also play all the non trans roles & we'd like dibs on everything actually so shut up bigots' though.

breakfastpizza what do you mean by underrepresented group? It is never brought up whether or not the character is trans as it’s not part of the storyline. Maybe she is, in which case it’s definitely not taking away anybody else. Even if she’s not, white young American women are really not an underrepresented group in acting. The show itself has a balance of male and female characters and this isn’t even a massive role.

When I saw Hari Nef in You I actually thought (and commented to my husband) how nice it was that they had chosen a less attractive woman in an American show, when normally everyone is so attractive that it’s unbelievable.

He just looked at me and went “I’m pretty sure it’s a bloke”.

Lol Ozgirl that’s what I thought too. Now that I look at a clip it’s obvious but it just didn’t occur to me when I first watched it because the storyline had nothing to do with anyone being trans.

@Pota2 - Women are an underrepresented group. It's a fun and interesting part that could have gone to a woman (of any colour) instead of a white male.

Thinking this through.

It's entirely about whether the audience will entirely accept the actor in the role, and if they're the best at the audition.

If there's a great trans actor up for a trans role, it seems right to cast them, for verisimilitude.

If they're up for a non trans (I don't use the c word but I don't know any other that would be acceptable) role, then why not, if they do a great audition and it's undetectable that the actor is trans.

But how realistic is this? I can only think of one, Nicole Maines in Supergirl, but then I think her character IS trans.

Most recent series of Jessica Jones had a transwoman playing the secretary. Was obvious to me the actor was male pretty much instantaneously. Can be difficult to tell from a photo (at times), but as soon as they move/speak it's clear.

White women are not an underrepresented group. And even if they were, trans/GNC people are even less represented. The character in You may or may not be trans. It’s not part of the storyline so I can’t see why it’s denying anyone else an opportunity by having a trans actor. It’s not like they have her playing someone who is pregnant or anything is it? What if Blythe actually is supposed to be trans but it’s just never mentioned?

They're under represented in that they have less lines, storylines, have shorter careers and are token characters in children's TV than male characters.

You was more about Beck and her friends and HN played a minor character anyway.

Happy yes, but it’s more complex than just saying that women are underrepresented and that no transwoman should have a female role. A much bigger problem for instance is young women playing the love interest of much older male characters and getting cast as ‘mum to a teenager’ roles in their early 30s. So younger women’s roles marginalise older women. White women’s roles marginalise women of colour. Thin conventionally attractive women’s roles marginalise women who don’t fit that mould. Men and women aren’t in direct competition for roles and there are many many shows where most of the cast is female. There are so few transwomen actors that I cannot get at all exorcised about a minor role going to one of them. And as said above, the character could be trans, it’s just not mentioned or relevant to the story. And hopefully we aren’t suggesting that trans people are only allowed to play a character where them being trans is central to the story.

Doesn't it come down to whether their casting distracts the audience from the storytelling? Unless the disconnect is part of what the director is trying to achieve, you need actors who are believable in whatever the role is.

MrsCollins sure. But in You, the character is a graduate student I believe. Not someone who is pregnant for instance. There is nothing distracting about this character being potentially transgender. The same way that a disabled person can play a character without disability being part of the storyline, I cannot see why the same cannot be said of a transgender person.

I don't think women should play a character of a transwoman because it's not at all helpful. I don't think a transwoman should play a woman either in a drama that is supposed to realistic (not stylised or fantasy)
Not too bothered about minor characters without an obvious storyline. Assuming this character was supposed to be trans but no big deal is made of it I don't have a problem with that at all.
The problem with casting someone whose identity is based on stereotypes in an opposite sex role is that it pricks everyone's attention as pointed out in the posts above including mine.

In "Friends", Chandler's transwoman mum was played by Kathleen Turner, putting a woman in a man's role.

In "Transamerica", same thing, with the transwoman played by Felicity Huffman, again putting a woman in the man's role.

The problem with those castings is that it gives the illusion that someone can have surgery, change sex and pass when it's not true. Both roles should have been given to men.

Surely acting, like anything else, should be the best person for the job...without prejudice.

And under representation should be addressed by looking at the causes of that underrepresentation. Playwrights not writing enough parts for women - perhaps an award for the best play with a female lead? A particular ethnic group? Is that that people of that ethnicity are not applying to drama school, or that they are not accepted by drama school. Then address this.

As soon as you start giving people jobs because they are trans, or female, or Asian etc you are building expectations of special treatment. And, quite possibly, are not hiring the best person for the job/role.

YourOpinionIsNoted yes, like Blaire White. Bit of a fan!

The problem with those castings is that it gives the illusion that someone can have surgery, change sex and pass when it's not true. Both roles should have been given to men.

Yes, though I think in friends that was part of the joke - that Chandler's dad was this really sultry, sexy woman, that the audience all knew as a famous actress, it added another layer of humour.