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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Moral Maze Radio 4 Now

28 replies

cwg1 · 23/10/2019 20:04

Discussing Birmingham schools issue. Parental rights etc.

OP posts:
BoreOfWhabylon · 23/10/2019 20:22

Just listening. Woke woman has just come out with the canard that intersex is as common as red hair Hmm

nauticant · 23/10/2019 20:24

They had the obligatory Goldsmiths person on coming out with the blending together of sex and gender and then the intersex gotcha.

BoreOfWhabylon · 23/10/2019 20:27

Yep, that was woke woman.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0009jl2

pombear · 23/10/2019 20:29

Woke woman also attempted to swerve Andrew's question around teaching primary children that 'gender is assigned' which he describes as 'not a settled issue', by saying that she doesn't use Andrew Moffat's resources, but used 'Educate and Celebrate'. (Oh hello, new resource site!) Educate and Celebrate, I think I heard her say, adheres to the Equality Act?

hmm www.educateandcelebrate.org/product/code-of-conduct/

Somehow we celebrate, at Educate and Celebrate, everything but someone's SEX!

Brief look at that site shows the absolute confusion, both of woke woman and these types of resources in general. Some resources that try to break down gender stereotypes at the same time as other resources linking stereotypical behaviour with 'gender identity'.

Absolute confusion, and nothing to do with sexual orientation.

nauticant · 23/10/2019 20:30

Here's the person from Goldsmiths: twitter.com/anna_carlile.

It's ironic that the programme is about the intolerance of the religious when Carlile's beliefs on offer to the programme sound to me pretty much like religious ones.

terryleather · 23/10/2019 20:32

Woke gave me the absolute radge! Angry

terryleather · 23/10/2019 20:32

Woke woman that should be obvs

Robbabank · 23/10/2019 20:35

Just listening now. Will have to listen back to pay attention properly and search up the ‘witnesses’.

littlebillie · 23/10/2019 20:35

Just checked and the intersex equality site for the is down on the internet. Google says 1.7% intersex and red heads for uk 10% - I was just curious to see if this was true.

I always like to hear both sides of the argument. I think the red head comparison is not quite right if applied to Northern Europe but in the world as a whole yes it's probably right. The moral maze is discussing Birmingham school so it was a poor choice to use in context of the argument.

FamilyOfAliens · 23/10/2019 20:37

Woke woman has “she/her” on her Twitter.

No shit, Anna 🙄

BoreOfWhabylon · 23/10/2019 20:40

I wish someone on Twitter would challenge her on the red hair/intersex rubbish.

MRKHTake2 would take her apart but I think she's no longer on Twitter.

BoreOfWhabylon · 23/10/2019 20:42

Anne Fausto-Sterling s suggestion that the prevalence of intersex might be as high as 1.7% has attracted wide attention in both the scholarly press and the popular media. Many reviewers are not aware that this figure includes conditions which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex, such as Klinefelter syndrome, Turner syndrome, and late-onset adrenal hyperplasia. If the term intersex is to retain any meaning, the term should be restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female. Applying this more precise definition, the true prevalence of intersex is seen to be about 0.018%, almost 100 times lower than Fausto-Sterling s estimate of 1.7%.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12476264

nauticant · 23/10/2019 20:42

Michael Buerk is not at all happy with Carlile's stated belief that sex and gender are social constructs.

The message is, slowly, getting out there.

BoreOfWhabylon · 23/10/2019 20:45

The BBC reports that as many as 1.7% of the world have intersex traits. Tim Harford speaks to an expert in the field, endocrinologist Dr Bernard Khoo about why that number is too high.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000222z

pombear · 23/10/2019 20:47

And Educate and Celebrate's recommended resources include:

Gracefully Grayson
Alone at home, twelve-year-old Grayson Sender glows, immersed in beautiful thoughts and dreams. But at school, Grayson grasps at shadows, determined to fly under the radar. Because Grayson has been holding onto a secret for what seems like forever: “he” is a girl on the inside, stuck in the wrong gender’s body.

Are you a Boy or are you a Girl?’
is unlike any kind of children’s book you’ve seen before. With your help, we can talk gender creatively and with confidence, and assist parents and teachers the world over. What makes this book new is that it leaves it up to the reader to decide the gender of the main character. It’s a book that includes all forms of gender expression, and it allows parents and children to begin to break down the barriers of gender and to talk about what different stereotypes and roles mean to them.

(Tip: They're trying to work out Tiny's gender based on the stereotypical things Tiny chooses to adopt from one day to another . And then has links to Mermaids charity. If this is really about breaking down stereotypes, why would you need a link to Mermaids - surely you'd just be being cool with your child mixing stereotypes up?)

And, oh for ffs, Jamie's Transgender Cinderella film where Jamie wants to cut her hair and wear her wicked stepbrothers' clothes and falls in love with the princess. (God forbid Jamie might actually be a lesbian!)

I have a feeing woke woman was being a little disingenous on the Moral Maze this evening! Definitely working with an organisation that pushes 'gender assigned at birth' theory, even if it's not Moffat's!

BoreOfWhabylon · 23/10/2019 20:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BoreOfWhabylon · 23/10/2019 21:04

Oh FFS @MNHQ! Really? You don't think people should be challenged when they spout false statistics on the National Broadcaster?

Thingybob · 23/10/2019 21:07

Did anyone else google Anne's name and find thier photo?

zebrasdontwearbras · 23/10/2019 21:10

As a redhead, I'm very tired of being brought into the trans/intersex debate as a comparator.

Luzina · 23/10/2019 21:11

Why would anyone be looking for her photo?

zebrasdontwearbras · 23/10/2019 21:16

Would like to add that we redheads are genetically superior.

Can also confirm that we are all witches proving that I am indeed the great great great granddaughter of the witches you could't burn.

So beware, wokesters Grin

MrGsFancyNewVagina · 23/10/2019 21:24

Oh zebrasdontwearbras, I’ve recently dyed my hair red! Can I now identify as a red head and gain the power? After all I look like a red head, except for my brows and pubes. But I’m sure it doesn’t matter what is in my knickers if I say I’m a red head. Wink

zebrasdontwearbras · 23/10/2019 21:26

Indeed you can MrGs

Repeat after me: You are a real redhead. Do that enough times and it becomes true.

MrGsFancyNewVagina · 23/10/2019 21:35

You are a real redhead. Do that enough times and it becomes true.

Goes of with a spray can to paint repeat after me, Trans red heads ARE red heads on the side of the BBC.

Melroses · 23/10/2019 21:44

More govt. money :
"As external evaluator for the charity Educate & Celebrate, Anna has undertaken extensive research into embedding LGBTQI+ issues across school policy, curriculum, and environment, in line with the Equality Act. This work was funded by the DfE and Government Equalities Office and has featured in a NatCen government report."

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