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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Doctor will ask for your sexuality now

53 replies

AncientLights · 22/10/2019 12:30

Am sure I've read stuff along these lines before, but this is from today's ( Tues 22 Oct 2019) Sun newspaper:

"GPs and hospitals should quiz every patient on whether they are gay or transgender by the end of next year, MPs say.

The rules would also see OAP care homes asking residents about sexual orientation and gender identity. The recommendations have been made by the Commons' Women & Equality Committee to help improve health care for sexual minorities."

It continues. I would post more but I am on my phone in a greasy spoon, hence reading The Sun.

I will refuse to answer any such questions. This is all part of the normalisation of trans - note the binary option in the first sentence. Seems we have to be trans or gay now. I know that's The Sun's paraphrasing, but it's odious.

OP posts:
JaneJeffer · 22/10/2019 12:34

I can imagine a lot of people will not take kindly to that!

ErrolTheDragon · 22/10/2019 12:34

Why, except in very specific circumstances, would a persons sexuality be of any relevance to a GP or hospital?Confused

EmpressLesbianInChair · 22/10/2019 12:35

Seeing that the NHS believe lesbians can have penises & that their definition of transgender comes down to anyone uncomfortable with gender stereotypes, it’s a meaningless question anyway.

Antibles · 22/10/2019 12:39

Why, except in very specific circumstances, would a persons sexuality be of any relevance to a GP or hospital?

It isn't of course, it's just that the T is still using the LGB cause as cover.

Twolittlespeckledfrogs · 22/10/2019 12:42

A persons sexual or gender identity wouldn’t matter at all. Because what actually matters is their biological sex and their actual sexual practices.

Plenty of men who don’t identify as gay have sex with other men for example meaning that services have to advertise themselves as for men who have sex with men rather than for gay and bisexual men. You can’t assume that a woman who identifies as a lesbian doesn’t need contraception because she might actually have sex with men occasionally. Or indeed with men who identify as women. It’s all very complicated.

This is the whole problem with identity politics. Identities are personal and complex and difficult to define as they don’t necessarily map perfectly on to more objective categories such as biological sex.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 22/10/2019 12:46

Well, I know lesbians who were mighty pissed off to be repeatedly offered contraception at GP surgery by doctors and nurses. So, I guess that's relevant to being able to provide good healthcare. It's about building a good therapeutic relationship, isn't it?

ErrolTheDragon · 22/10/2019 12:53

That's one of the possible 'specific circumstances' - but could equally apply to women who were for any reason celibate.

TinselAngel · 22/10/2019 12:53

Also waves at Ancient Lights

It matters in the sense of who you're shagging can be relevent.

However last time I went to the sexual health clinic (for a coil fitting!), the questions about sexuality and gender identity were already pretty confusing.

HereComeTheSuffragettesAGAIN · 22/10/2019 12:57

A persons sexual or gender identity wouldn’t matter at all. Because what actually matters is their biological sex and their actual sexual practices.

Exactly! I'll also be refusing to answer and telling them what a ridiculous question it is. They know what gender I am, it says it on my birth certificate, which is all that's relevant to my care. It doesn't matter if I really feel I'm a spuddy potato, nothing to do with the biological care needed.

I'm straight, that does not include men with vagina, I'm allowed a sexuality. Although popular opinion you aren't these days. I have never been offered contraception and if I was, it just takes a no thanks? I can't see why anyone would be pissed off.

In regards to normalisation of trans, studies have concluded there is no such thing as men's and women's brains. So why do some people feel they are the other gender, they are in the wrong body etc when our brains are the same? Is it just they didn't relate to what they've been told boys and girls do and don't do etc. Is the wrong care being offered? I don't understand why this hasn't been studied.

DDIJ · 22/10/2019 12:57

This reply has been withdrawn

Message from MNHQ: This post has been withdrawn

30to50FeralHogs · 22/10/2019 13:00

Well, I know lesbians who were mighty pissed off to be repeatedly offered contraception at GP surgery by doctors and nurses. So, I guess that's relevant to being able to provide good healthcare. It's about building a good therapeutic relationship, isn't it?

How is that relevant though, as some lesbians have penises and can impregnate other lesbians, so they should still be offered contraception - even more so these days.

And no, of course I don’t believe that lesbians have penises, but some people do, so while that is the case, and we’re not allowed to define woman/lesbian in any way relating to genitals, we have to assume that any man can get pregnant, so my DP should also be offered the pill when he goes for his next check up/smear test. And every woman could wel have a prostate that needs checking.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 22/10/2019 13:03

Well, the heteronormative-ness (if that's a word) in medicine is problematic for my lesbian chums. And, I think that's a fair criticism, being straight is common, not normal, after all.

But, yes, lesbians with penises and words which mean nothing renders questions like this to a woke box to tick.

Antibles · 22/10/2019 13:16

You can be heterosexual and not need contraception if you're not having sex. I don't see why a lesbian should be any more or less annoyed than a celibate person. But obviously anyone is entitled to be annoyed if they went in about a broken ankle and got the third degree about their shagging habits.

I still think this is actually all about getting transgender validated yet further, using LGB as the vehicle.

HereComeTheSuffragettesAGAIN · 22/10/2019 13:19

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria every sexuality is normal. Being straight is just as normal as being gay, lesbian or bisexual.

That did up until recently include pansexual, however, after women's safety, rights, freedom and what it means to be a woman has and is being stripped from us. It has caused me to think about transsexuals and pansexuals. I have a pretty solid foundation for a thesis, I'd just need say 100 or so transsexuals willing too honestly answer some questions in an interview. But I have no way of finding 100 transsexuals wiling to honestly answer! And there's a certain group on twitter who I believe will give untrue answers. Possibly an interview with a lie detector! I wish I had the resources. I don't understand why those who do have the resources aren't. Everything we know is physically men and women are different, but our brains are the same. So how is incongruence triggered from gender stereotypes not been investigated at length? If our brains are the same, then surely what it means to be a woman or man is what you are born with.

Why have we jumped straight to taking women's rights away, taking away safety, taking away fairness in women's sports? Why have we jumped to woman becoming an offensive term?

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 22/10/2019 13:26

On the sexuality (sexual orientation) side, I welcome it. I’m not huuugely aggrieved at being usually presumed heterosexual, because that’s the majority experience, but it can be tedious having to come out over and over after someone has assumed I’m straight - it’s much more pleasant to be able to come out in response to an even-handed question, and ‘pleasant’ does matter in health issues - it’s part of feeling supported by health professionals and therefore being able to trust them and ultimately pursue the right course of action with their greater information about medical matters and the patient’s greater info about themselves. And the context is, very often, that the patient is making contact with health professionals at a time of particular vulnerability, so helping them feel comfortable is more important.

An easy example: I am a (single) lesbian mother. After DC1, I was discharged by a midwife who’d cared for me antenatally and knew me well and who knew me as a lesbian in ‘identity’ terms I guess. She said “we need to talk about contraception - I’m assuming that’s not an issue for you, am I right?” - and it was lovely to not have to begin by correcting her (I guess this is a nice thing for straight women who are not usually required to come out and deviate from the script). And it would have still been my opportunity to say ‘well actually I do sometimes have sex with people who might impregnate me’ or whatever, and that would have been fine. She was just able to make - and check - a better assumption because she already knew I was a lesbian.
After DC2, I was discharged by a midwife I hadn’t met before that day, and she asked “what are you planning for contraception?” I’m a confident person (and let’s be fair, she’d been inspecting my stitches only a few minutes earlier!), so I just said “lesbianism!” and we both laughed and she said whoops sorry, I didn’t know! ok, you know we recommend contraception for whatever-period, sounds like you’re fine, pop to the GP if you do need anything. And it was also fine, but the onus was on me to disrupt the conversation a bit. And it’s really grating when the onus is constantly on you to disrupt the conversation, because sometimes you’re tired (or scared or in pain or whatever whatever) and you’re thinking, shall I just go along with this for an easy life and to be polite?

Absolutely the important medical info is the biological stuff - that’s why when I went for a checkup at the STI clinic in Soho, the nurse started with “so, do you have sex with guys or girls or both?” and from there went on to clarify whether I meant just women as in ‘has a vulva and not a penis’ or a broader category, and whether I had multiple sexual partners, and exactly what I did and what protection I did or didn’t use, etc. BUT the labels can be a useful flag to reorient assumptions and starting points, and for those of us thus affected (a sizeable minority, by most stats) I think it can be a welcome change.

I know older friends who are v exercised by the challenges faced by older LGB people in care homes and similar services. Am somewhat embarrassed to say I’ve followed very little to know what those issues are, but I bet they will also be welcoming this move which stops HCPs and other care providers from being able to invisibilise homosexuality because of their own issues about it, which definitely I have seen happening in hospital situations eg where partners are quite wilfully misconstrued as sisters and so on.

I’m not going to bite on the trans issue. I think a patient identifying as trans is likely to be a useful flag for the HCP in terms of needing to check in on other relevant biological/social issues specifically to ensure appropriate treatment, and I think building positive relationships between HCPs and patients is a good thing, regardless of the social implications of gender identity.

Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 22/10/2019 13:34

Confused face emoticon. Gay or transgender?

For the eleventymillionth time. Sex, Gender and Sexuality are not the same thing.

Still, nice distraction from Brexit and the rise in Public Sector Borrowing.

AncientLights · 22/10/2019 13:35

Hi Empress! Hi TInsel!

Obviously there are areas of healthcare where sexuality is important, sexual health clinics spring to mind. Blood transfusion should also be one of these, but I think I'm right in saying that they now accept people as what they say they are. So if you're a man who identifies as a woman, and you are in a sexual relationship with a man who does likewise, then the BTS will record you as a lesbian although this shifts your at-risk grouping. With possible consequences for blood recipients. Statistically.

It's this blanket questioning that gets me. I'm certainly not one to assume that older people, being considerably past my salad days myself, are celibate or shocked by sex Shock, but it needs handling with sensitivity. If I go to the GP with a bad back (I know, wasting the GPs time) is it really relevant what sexuality or identity I am currently espousing?

All of this in the context of 'gender' & not sex being on NHS forms, TW being admitted to women's hospital bays, lesbians having penisis ....it'll all be meaningless. And it'll be even more meaningless if lots of us refuse to answer as there'll be no baseline to compare the 'alternatives' to anyway.

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WomensRightsAreContraversial · 22/10/2019 13:38

Just me who thinks this is just as well then?

There are trans people whose pregnancy and labour has been missed because doctors don't expect men to be pregnant. Trans people not getting smear tests and sex-appropriate screening and treatment because they're declaring their gender not sex. Even if forms went back to sex not gender I'd put money on some trans people treating it like their preferred gender. This way at least GPs are getting a clearer view of what sex a person is and if their symptoms are consistent with their sex, or their status as trans.

And I bloody wish the people who insisted I take a pregnancy test before having an x-ray had used some common sense when I told them I'd been in an exclusive relationship with a woman (biological definition) for 9 years Hmm

quickkimchi · 22/10/2019 13:38

If by heteronormativity we mean viewing women as a fuckable hole then that is a problem not only for lesbians but for all women. It seems like every time I go in they ask me about bc and I don't use it because I don't have penetrative sex and don't need it. They still ask. If they never make a note about that I don't understand how questions about sexual identity will change that behaviour.
On one hand I can see why they want to ensure no one is kept from bc due to shyness/embarrassment; otoh I wonder how many men are asked the same questions with the same frequency.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 22/10/2019 13:39

I got asked these questions a couple of years ago when I went to an NHS physiotherapist! It had no relevance to my treatment.

I just always say it’s none of their business.

AncientLights · 22/10/2019 13:42

Clearly the thing to do is read what is actually proposed, rather than The Sun's version of it. The article goes on to show some doctors giving it short shrift.

I used to work in women's health and really all you have to do is ask people relevant questions and listen to the answers. Be sensitive. My point really is that if all HCPs have to ask particular questions (and if these should have to be repeated every time as we're all so fluid now) of everyone they come into contact with, then it's the opposite of patient-centred care. If they seriously want to capture data about marginalised groups, there are probably better ways of going about it.

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NatashasDance · 22/10/2019 13:57

NellWilsonsWhiteHair

It's hardly an imposition for a midwife to suggest discussing contraception with someone who has just given birth.

jennymanara · 22/10/2019 13:59

I think this is a good thing, although people should have the option of not giving any information. But normally GPs and Drs assume someone is straight, unless they otherwise say. And yes it is relevant.

quickkimchi · 22/10/2019 14:00

I think increasingly femaleness is like the gluten-free, dairy-free, egg-free cake: it's a sort of repository for all the stuff no one wants to think too much about or specifically address in a meaningful way.
A friend of mine who is an academic has posted a blurb on fb about an 'interdisciplinary Department of Women and Gender Studies [which] puts women, gender, and sexuality at the center of academic investigation.' What do women have in common with gender and sexuality? Something to do with fucking? I guess when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

ErrolTheDragon · 22/10/2019 14:30

Is it sexuality itself which is relevant to healthcare issues, or is it liable to be more of a proxy for behaviours (eg. riskier practices in males, less risky ones in females, roughly and probably inaccurately)?