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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Secrets of the Seduction Bootcamp' Panorama

14 replies

WomanBornNotWorn · 21/10/2019 23:31

Reporter goes undercover to expose the men training other men how best to harass women

About the Panorama programme

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=a-_tUXEifvw

OP posts:
WomanBornNotWorn · 21/10/2019 23:31

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=a-_tUXEifvw

OP posts:
crustycrab · 21/10/2019 23:50

Yeah, ages ago. All the same, its horrifying

Hawkinsxmaslights · 21/10/2019 23:58

Heard about it a few years ago. The internet is rife with it. Beware some of the pick-up artists use strong mind bending techniques.

zebrasdontwearbras · 22/10/2019 00:28

The old PUAs.

My DH asked me yesterday if I wanted to watch this - I actually don't. We watched that recent one on MRA incels and I felt utterly despondent afterwards - they just hate women, despise us, see us like an alien species or something. Some of the incels don't seem to even respect that we should have a choice of who we would like date - think we sould be handed out to men like handmaids. Well, mates, very few women think they'd like to date men that clearly despise and disrespect them.

See also: Negging.

Scott72 · 22/10/2019 02:04

These men are themselves being conned since these "tricks" don't work and the women being subjected to them invariably feel harassed.

WomanBornNotWorn · 22/10/2019 11:05

Links well with the ever been followed by creepy man thread

OP posts:
UpfieldHatesWomen · 22/10/2019 12:36

I haven't watched this but am very familiar with pick up artist techniques, and I think I was recently approached by one in Leicester Square. The location would make sense, as he asked me if I was foreign at first, so probably hangs out there looking for women travelling on their own, out of their comfort zone, more willing to talk to people and less familiar with the language and culture. The conversation wasn't too bad at first, although he did have a habit of trying to 'categorise me' - 'oh, so you're the kind of girl who does blah blah blah', which got my guard up, and then when he shook hands he held on too long which was creepy as hell. Nonetheless, I was travelling on my own, and I didn't feel in danger in the middle of the day, so out of curiosity and to have someone to chat to for a while I went into a bar with him. I even asked him 'so are you a pick up artist?' to which he was kind of evasive (rumbled). In the bar, he told me he was a surgeon, to which I prodded him until he had to admit that he was actually a dentist (although that could have been a lie too). He was very arrogant and patronising, and his technique seemed to be to push boundaries and make me doubt myself, using a kind of Queer Theory approach in a way. Somehow he got onto stating that pain isn't an indicator of the possibility of death, and that women in the past didn't feel pain in childbirth, pain is culturally specific and tried to put the burden of proof on me to claim otherwise. There were nuggets of truth in things he said, that he used to tr to persuade. At this point, pick-up artist or not it wasn't my idea of a good time and I'd had enough, so I got up mid-drink and left, telling him he was a patronising arse who wasn't as intelligent as he seemed to think he was. I'm older than I look and am well-aware of the gaslighting these kinds of men use to weaken women's defences, but would these techniques have worked when I was younger and more vulnerable? I think the ONLY instance in which it would work would be if I actually found the guy attractive in the first place. That's why pick-up courses are selling such a lie. I think these men can't bear to think that they are unattractive to women or they perhaps need to change something about their behaviour. There's a denial that women are visual creatures too (we often hear 'men are more visual' - really? Or women just socialised to be more generous? You also get men shaming women for not wanting to go out with/sleep with guy because he's unattractive, as though it's a woman's duty to open her legs to any man who approaches her. Similarly 'all women are bisexual' er, no...). This kind of pick-up culture puts these fears about women's agency to rest and makes the men using them think they've found some sort of magic bullet which makes women's preferences irrelevant. I hope you don't mind my contribution to this thread, don't mean to derail as I haven't watched the documentary and honestly don't know if I can stomach it. I find this kind of thinking, particularly among younger men, to be rife, and as such remain contentedly single.

UpfieldHatesWomen · 22/10/2019 12:54

...very similar to TRA techniques, in fact, gas-lighting women and trying to break down their boundaries in an attempt to force them to do things they don't want to do, to not believe in their own eyes and to not allow women t have any preferences.

merryhouse · 22/10/2019 13:12

ha, pain in childbirth is mentioned in the first book of the bible...

UpfieldHatesWomen · 22/10/2019 13:16

merryhouse I remember mentioning something similar, to which he then changed the boundaries and asked for proof before the Ancient Egyptians!

PuertoVallarta · 22/10/2019 17:15

The tricks do work. There is a loser PUA in my building. I have seen him out and about doing his “day game” on young women. I often see him stumbling home with a new one-night stand.

I am being generous when I call him a loser.

I don’t know how to say this without sounding unkind, but the women he drags in look quite naive and I would say some of them have never been on a date in their lives.

I feel hatred toward him. I have overheard him talking to his PUA friends on the balcony on summer nights. I’m so angry and he knows I hate him and disapprove. I’m just a middle aged woman so my opinion means nothing.

Hawkinsxmaslights · 22/10/2019 17:26

Exactly women who are vulnerable to their charms in some way. They wouldn’t listen to us though!

UpfieldHatesWomen · 22/10/2019 18:09

I can believe it works on vulnerable women who aren't experienced, have been abused and so don't have a strong sense of self and honed instincts. The PUAs know this too and target accordingly, all very depressing. I hate the whole PUA premise that starts from a belief that women don't want sex and have to be tricked into it. I think what PUA techniques has given these guys is a way to be confident and that's what's appealing to women, rather than the bullshit lines about their well-paid jobs and the nasty negging crap - that might draw in some women (who've been abused and know no better), any healthy woman will be disgusted. It's a shame they can't learn to be confident with women without assuming a false persona and being insulting, misogynistic twats in the process. I do think for a lot of these men though that sex isn't even the main goal, they enjoy tricking a woman through playing on their insecurities and see that sadistic act as some sort of achievement. The ultimate conclusion the writer of 'The Game' came to was that it was all a very hollow victory, conning women into sleeping with him as he knew that they never were attracted to the person he really was.

MaybeDoctor · 22/10/2019 19:28

I think that it’s as old as the hills - the strategising reminds me of a bargain- basement Vicomte Valmont. What has changed is our social and legal framework which makes this kind of harassment no longer acceptable.

Women do seem to go with them willingly, but they are on very dubious ground with the illegal recordings and promoting the idea of ignoring non-consent through the idea of ‘last minute resistance’.

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