Why transrights are not the same as gay rights

[Lamahaha]

I don't know if this has been posted before, but anyway, it's not on page 1 today and can't be repeated often enough; I keep hearing that trans rights are the new gay rights; but there's really no comparison.
It's a fantastic thread unroll.

Most MNers know all this already, but it's been expressed here so succintly and clearly, all the arguments in one spot.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1185196529495269376.html?fbclid=IwAR3P4O0rrjWaY1gPUKkIc_HflQFBa5ahBcOpxbmsiEcVl5RAG4uIBxSDgSg

That really is an excellent thread. This really sums it up for me:

I never believed in gender — this idea that “man” and “woman” are internal feelings separate from chromosomal and reproductive sex. But I supported trans people anyway, because I didn’t feel required to agree with them. I didn’t feel required to submit to their doctrine.

I used the pronouns to be polite, and because those pronouns weren’t the loaded prospects they’ve become.

But now there’s this “gotcha” quality to it, as if “she” = trans women are women = literally biologically female = all rights are now gender- rather than sex-based.

I'm not surprised she feels betrayed as a lesbian. As a feminist woman, I have never believed in "gender" either - but it seems "gender identity" is everything now.

Bumping

Yes I saw that and thought it was very good.

I did an MA in gender and international development about 15 yrs ago. The defiition of gender was very much the intersection of different factors and characteristics, and who had agency as a result in any given society. It was how to take these factors into account when working in development to make sure everyones needs were met. It wasnt what it has become today in the uk.

Not at all. I remember pre section 28. The rainbow flag meant something then - it was edgy, daring, political.

People wanted their own rights back then - not someone else’s. This is bullying and gaslighting on a huge scale.

It's a good thread but for me misses the most basic difference between gay rights and trans 'rights'.

Gay rights is about morality. Everyone knows it is possible to have sexual relations with a member of your own sex. The question was always 'is it morally acceptable to have same sex relations?'.

Gay rights campaigners set about making their lives morally acceptable to wider society to change the answer to that question from no to yes.

Trans 'rights' are about reality. Nobody thinks it is immoral to earnestly wish or believe you are the opposite sex to that which you are in reality. The question is 'is it possible to be the opposite sex to that which you were determined at conception and observed to be at birth?'.

The answer to that question is no and it doesn't matter what trans 'rights' activists do or say the answer will remain no. It isn't possible to change sex. It isn't possible to change reality. The rest of us can't help them because their wish simply isn't within the realms of achievability. Lying to them about this isn't going to make anything better for them or anyone else.

Arnold

I had never thought about it that way before, morality Vs reality, thank you!

Thank you Arnild that's really helpful.

I'd always thought of it in terms of treatment. Gay people demanded liberation from being medicalised, therapied, hormonally treated - from being treated as though same sex attraction was an illness. They demanded freedom to just be.

WPATH and some trans activists demand access to medicalisation/physicalisation - more hormones, more surgery, less therapy for change although some will be ok with 'psychological support'. Some will say this is because all these things make passing easier and means they experience less transphobia, not because they need it as 'treatment'. Some talk about it a bit like recreational drugs (cf David Thomas's description of first putting on his cross-sex hormone patch). All in all I find the medicalisation of healthy bodies (combined with a rejection of psychiatric models) really distressing, commercially driven, Western centric and the opposite of liberation.

They are both united by very common themes:

• People are born gay / trans. They are both a fundamental part of who a person is

• Both are something the individual has no control over

• Both are likely to have caused internal conflict, confusion and shame

• Gay and trans individuals are likely to have gone into denial / tried to pass as straight or as their born sex

• Coming out as gay / trans is generally a huge relief and the person is glad to be able to live publicly as their authentic self

• Both gay and trans people would struggle and find life very difficult if they were not able to be open about who they really are

• Straight, non-trans individuals find it hard to relate to being same-sex attracted or having gender dysphoria

Gay marriage is still very new. We still can't marry in most churches. It is not supported by most religions.

Homophobes (and a lot of Christians) will refuse to acknowledge a lesbian couple as 'wife and wife' or a gay couple as 'husband and husband'. They consider it to be nonsense, a lie.

Many people nowadays refuse to acknowledge the preferred pronouns of a trans person. They consider it to be nonsense, a lie.

I could go on but the few examples I've given show the struggle for recognition is very similar

People are born gay / trans. They are both a fundamental part of who a person is

Gay is being attracted to members of one's own sex. It's easy for everyone to understand what this is. But what do you mean by trans? Do you mean people who truly believe that they have been 'born in the wrong body'? Do you mean people who are unhappy about their sex dictating how they should behave/dress? Do you mean men who are aroused by the thought of themselves as women? Do you mean people who are gay, but want to be straight due to internalised homophobia? All of these people, and more, are under Stonewall's 'trans umbrella'.

Both gay and trans people would struggle and find life very difficult if they were not able to be open about who they really are

Gay people really are attracted to members of their own sex. Trans people are not really members of the opposite sex.

Many people nowadays refuse to acknowledge the preferred pronouns of a trans person. They consider it to be nonsense, a lie.

Some of us consider this to be coercive. Maria MacLachlan was told in court to refer to her male attacker as 'she' because that is how he 'identifies'.

OldCrone

Yes by 'trans' I did mean those people who genuinely feel they have been born in the wrong body. I realise actions of the TRA brigade and others you mention muddies the water somewhat.

Trans people are not really members of the opposite sex.

I agree. The law (GRA) stipulates they should be treated as their acquired gender but the Equality Act has exemptions meaning it is lawful to treat transgender people differently in some circumstances. For example it is lawful to exclude trans women from female sporting events and applying for sensitive female-only job roles. This is absolutely right.

Maria MacLachlan was told in court to refer to her male attacker as 'she' because that is how he 'identifies'.

Not aware of this case but that sounds like a very poor decision. There is a big difference between this and using preferred pronouns in everyday neutral scenarios.

Gay people are still being accused of all sorts of sinister motivations - I have personally been told my gay marriage is a 'militant attempt to discredit marriage'. All I want to do is marry the person I love.

Similarly I think transgender people are often accused of having sinister motivations when in 99% of cases they just want to live their lives happily and peacefully.

Not aware of this case but that sounds like a very poor decision. There is a big difference between this and using preferred pronouns in everyday neutral scenarios.

Indeed, a very poor decision. However, that decision results from guidance that means that all defendants in court are to be referred to by their preferred pronouns - even when it's those accused of rape - by their victims, who have to call their rapist "she".