I have just been called ableist because I support antenatal screening

[noideawheretostart]

And I'm so blind sided by it that I don't really know where to begin with how incorrect that statement is.

It's all "more work for mother," isn't it? Incredible how frequently "the left" now wants to impose parenting and household ethics that impact mothers disproportionately.

No antenatal testing! More women have to stay home taking care of disabled kids. No disposable nappies! Women should wash cloth ones instead, for the environment, and make their own wipes too. Zero waste! Women should shop more carefully and never for something disposable. Don't let kids cry themselves to sleep, ever, you'll destroy them for life! Women should spend their days and nights catering to demanding children and make sure they get their way as often as possible, or they're abusive women whose children ought to be taken. Don't tell them off, either. Women need to spend all day thinking of creative discipline methods and making sure the children's fathers abide by them too, else she should leave him immediately and do all the work of a single mother.

When I was young, it was the religious right whose policies ("we don't think two income families are good for kids!") kept women chained to the home and their children. Now when I see a woman with parenting and household duties so heavy that she can't really work, she's just as likely to be a "crunchy" hippie mom as a right-wing religious mom.

To me it seems a lot like the left is trying to set an incredibly high "barrier to entry" for childbearing. If you conceive a child, much like the religious right, the far left now believes you should never abort in case of disability, so you should prepare to raise a child of any level of disability. Of course, they also think it's ok to abort for any reason if it's before any scans that could reveal a disability.

But if you're going to have a baby, you should prepare to dedicate your whole life to their early childhood because otherwise you won't be able to keep up with the standards. You should have more money and time put aside per child than ever in history, and if you can't manage that, you're strongly discouraged from having children at all.

Then the grandparent generation wonders why so many of the liberal women they've raised are childfree.

Yes, I was agreeing with you OP, but I cross posted with you, so my “although” looked like a difference of opinion to yours.

My view on this has evolved over the years. But whatever my view has been, I’ve never thought there was a simple and clearcut answer and I disagree with those on both extremes who pronounce one. There are complex ethical issues to consider and those change, even from family to family.

At this point in my life, with a very poorly child, I believe (maybe have to believe) that even short lives that are full of pain are worth living. And that caring for those who can’t look after themselves is wholly worth doing.

As a PP has said, antenatal screening can pick up conditions that can either be corrected by foetal surgery before birth, or will require surgery after birth - so screening can and does save lives.

@noideawheretostart - I would ask your friend if she thinks it is acceptable for some babies to die of conditions that could be diagnosed by antenatal screening, because they don’t get the treatment then need.

If your against antenatal screening then what about PGS testing for chromosome defects as part of IVF?

As usual I suspect the ones accusing you of being ableist are the ones who haven't had to look after a very poorly child or carry a baby in pregnancy which is going to die within hours of birth

Thank you for your input @Somerville - it sounds like you have had to be very strong in advocating and caring for your child. Would you judge somebody for choosing not to do that?

Oh Somerville, that sounds very, very hard.

Your friend is a twat.

I am disabled. My professional life is wholly about supporting and advocating for people with disabilities.

I aborted my disabled child. I love and think of him everyday. The last thing I do before going to sleep is to say goodnight to him. I never thought I'd abort for a disability. But there you are. He had Downs, a severe heart abnormality and other organ abnormalities. He probably wouldn't have survived to birth. If he had, he would likely have a had a short life confined to hospital. We could have tried surgery to buy a little time.

I didn't want him to develop a level where he might suffer. I didn't want to walk around with a big pregnant belly, having people fuss over me. I didn't want my living children to have the heartache of watching their brother die.

So I had a tfmr. DP and I held his body. We kissed and sang to him. But yeah. Designer babies. Disablism. Whatever.

ah, Sylvanian, I'm so sorry.

Thanks @sarahtancredi and @53rdway Its so hard. But I think it's important to talk about. There needs to be a balance. I think it's pretty rare for someone to end a wanted pregnancy without believing, at least hoping, they are doing the right thing.

Thank you for your input @SylvanianFrenemies and sorry that this has caused you to revisit painful memories. Thank you for sharing with us.

Oh @Somerville. I remember all of your older threads, and have several times thought of you.

Thank you for your input @Somerville - it sounds like you have had to be very strong in advocating and caring for your child. Would you judge somebody for choosing not to do that?

With an opinion that there are no simple and easy answers to such a complex issue, I don’t and won’t judge anyone either way. I don’t think I could judge even if I was so inclined.

With most children with diseases or additional needs however there is no antenatal test. I had a perfectly healthy child six months ago. (She might be again in the future, I don’t know right now, but getting there involves a lot of pain and a lot of fear - but a surprising amount of laughter and pleasure for her amidst that, which is what I hold onto for now.)

Having another human being completely dependent on you is something to factor in when we have children - not just for their infancy. Accidents/illness/diagnosis of disability can happen to any of our children at any time, in which case - the vast majority of the cases - there is no choice, nothing to do but get on with it as best we can.

Part of the picture is the appalling lack of support for both people who are ill or disabled and carers in our society. This isn’t the first time in my life I’ve been a carer, and both times I’ve had to rely on lots of support from extended family and friends. I don’t know how people without those cope - and that’s another thing that makes it wrong, IMO, to pronounce easy answers on things like antenatal testing.

I still think that women who abort do so out of maternal love. For whatever reason, they feel that they are not in a position to give that potential child the quality of life they feel they deserve.

Outside of conditions that too painful to deliberately bring a child into this world to suffer, other conditions may require more money and free time than the mother or parents feel that they have available. I had a neighbour who had to carry her teenage disabled son up four flights of stairs every night to their flat.

You cannot even count on government support. What you have this year may be withdrawn next year.

Some women will have an existing disabled child, and feel unable to care for a second. Some women may be older mothers, and worry that there will be nobody to care for their disabled child when they are no longer around to do so themselves.
Some women will choose to end a pregnancy where there is no hope of a life out of the uterus, or a very brief one.
I agree that there are many reasons that come from a place of love. Personally I felt that with dd1, as an older mother, I would have continued with a pregnancy whatever. With dd2 I had to think long and hard about what the impact might be on dd1, if I was carrying a very sick or profoundly disabled child.

It doesn’t help that parents have to fight for provision for disabled children, who may have been born with or without a disability, not all disabled children are born that way.

I'm so sorry to hear that, SylvanianFrenemies. Heartbreaking.

My SIL had a late termination after screening revealed the foetus had Patau syndrome. They were told that if the baby wasn't stillborn he'd be unlikely to reach his first birthday and would have no quality of life. They took hand and footprints and had a funeral. The decision still saddens them, particularly my DB.

We do really need to get our heads around this. My friend is Irish and was not allowed screening whilst pregnant so had to go private and got a lot of backlash. I had screening and have a special needs child.

So I do see on one hand not allowing women to screen is a way of oppression, saying that they can have no control over their bodies in the same way as not allowing abortion. It is why it is in male dominated religious areas.

However with new technology this can bring up all sorts of information about a growing foetus, the disabilities but also possible intelligence etc in the future. We need to be clear we are not eradicating difference and perceived ‘weakness’ and creating a society that sees disability or not perfect as disposable. It’s worth debating and being ethical.

I don’t know what the answer is. I would hate to see women not being able to even have an abortion, but I don’t want to see a perfect human race either.

I have met many women who have had a tfmr, for a range of reasons, myself included. Not one of us would describe ourselves as 'ableists'. We all made the decisions we did out of love for our children, and not wanting the uncertainty or potential suffering that their lives could bring, so made decisions that we thought were best at the time. These aren't easy decisions and they change your life. But one thing is for certain, we all loved our babies. When you have screening, nobody knows what they would do unless they are sat there facing a positive result. It's really difficult for someone to understand the complexities of it if it's just a 'what if'.

I think this is a very hard decision, and not one that anyone should be criticised for. I had screening, and I would have aborted if it had shown abnormalities.

I grew up with a disabled brother. He will outlive my parents, and me and my sisters will have to care for him. I come at this from a different perspective from other people I think because of this.

I love my brother. He's intelligent, but very emotionally naive and immature. He will never have fulfilling relationships because it could never be risked that he had a child, because he wouldn't be able to give the informed consent to do so, despite living fairly independently, and desiring this sort of thing (basically, like a 13 year old in a grown adult body). He has impacted on every area of our family life - and always will. I would not like to put my existing children through that, and, I would not like to bring into being a human who will have that life (although obviously, I also wouldn't want to prevent other people from doing so, or people who have that life from living).

I think that this is something for each person to approach on their own, and not for anyone to judge others regarding.

At this point in my life, with a very poorly child, I believe (maybe have to believe) that even short lives that are full of pain are worth living. And that caring for those who can’t look after themselves is wholly worth doing

Oh Somerville, I also completely believe this. Every life is valuable - even given my position and what I believe I would do. It sounds contradictory I know. But I think that's acceptance - that you make a choice, and both are correct. Both are worthy, and right. And no-one gets to make that decision but the person carrying that child.

amen to that sister

Terms like abelist aren't helpful.

But maybe it makes more sense to look at it from a class analysis perspective. Something like 85% of those afflicted with Downs syndrome are aborted. What does this say about us as a society, about what and who we value? I've heard a doctor talk about how wonderful it is that we have a remedy for this now, which is to say we prevent the existence of such people. Keeping in mind, this is a group that is as likely as anyone else to report living a satisfying life.
I'm not sure numbers like that mean anything different if it's what individuals choose than it would if we legislated that kind of thing.

@Somerville, having followed your old threads, I feel I know and love you. I'm sorry your child is going through this and hope all turns out well for you both.

@Somerville and thinking of you and your baby and wishing all will be well. Every single drop of life is precious.

I agree with Somerville. No extremes as both are too oppressive for what is ultimately a very complex subject.

I have a child with special needs that I will probably have to care for, for the rest of my life. I absolutely love him and wouldn’t change this for the world. However I also had a screening test and may have considered aborting for disability. Because I was worried how I would cope, with having the life long burden of care, and these are not unfounded fears. Whilst I love my child there is a shocking lack of support for disabled children, and residential care sometimes is really lacking. It’s a serious consideration and willingly bringing a child into the world who will need so much extra care is not something most of us take lightly.

However on the positive side, it’s shown me how happy and lovely it can be having a disabled child - it can be really wonderful too in ways that having a normal child isn’t. Being alongside my child with their different world view and experience is actually pretty amazing and joyous.