StackOverflow CoC

[programmer5278]

Disclaimer: I started this account to make this post, but have no intention of trolling. I'm a mum of three and a programmer, and haven't posted on mumsnet since about 2011.

So...StackOverflow is question and answer site for programmers. It's the market leader, and is a top 50 website. Most programmers in the world use it regularly. Until recently, it was the sort of grown up site that many people used under their real names, and used it to advance their careers.

StackOverflow is part of a group called StackExchange, which includes question and answer sites on a variety of topics, some of which are technical and others aren't. The technical sites are OK, but the non-technical ones mostly consist of groups of self-appointed experts giving replies that are supposed to be factual but are mostly opinion-based (it's cathartic to say what I really think about them!).

Recently, StackExchange fired a volunteer from moderator duties, and apparently briefed the press negatively about her (according to what I have read on various SE sites). She posted under her real name, and this did her damage in the real world.
Apparently, they wanted to bring in a new code of conduct, and she had argued a bit too much about some parts of it (mostly grammatical, I believe).
Normally things like codes of conduct are discussed by active users, so she would have had an expectation that it was up for discussion.

The code of conduct covered trans issues. When published (meta.stackexchange.com/questions/334900/official-faq-on-gender-pronouns-and-code-of-conduct-changes?cb=1), it has proven to be VERY contentious on the site.

I'm making this post, because what I wrote on SE Meta (official discussion forum for SE sites) was deleted. I don't believe that I said anything nasty. My only "crime" was to suggest that StackExchange could look at the mumsnet CoC on trans issues, because I believe it is more balanced and appropriate than the one they have written.
Also, I politely asked people not to use the offensive terms "cis" and "TERF".
My post was called "abhorrent" (!) and deleted.

Why is the StackExchange CoC worrying?
Well, when Justine wrote the mumsnet CoC, I believe that her main concern was to prevent flame wars. That is a position that I respect and understand, and it's what I would expect from a mature, grown up company.
Everyone should be allowed to post on equal terms, and everyone must accept that they will not always get their way.

However, the SE CoC is rather different.

Firstly, it mandates gender neutral language if you haven't explicitly been told which pronoun someone prefesr:
("“Use stated pronouns (when known).”
“Prefer gender-neutral language when uncertain.”"
This means that if a user is called William, and has not specified which are this user's preferred pronouns, you must use "they" as William's pronoun, eg "William said that they use Linux"

This is not grammatically correct English, but SE explicitly says that you must use ungrammatical English rather than risk misgendering someone.

Secondly, they say
"Q12: Does this mean I’m required to use pronouns when I normally wouldn’t?
We are asking everyone to use all stated pronouns as you would naturally write. "
However, they also say
Q11: If I’m uncomfortable with a particular pronoun, can I just avoid using it?
We are asking everyone to use all stated pronouns as you would naturally write. Explicitly avoiding using someone’s pronouns because you are uncomfortable is a way of refusing to recognize their identity and is a violation of the Code of Conduct. (my bold type)

Now, this last point means that if you formulate a sentence without using pronouns, you will be in violation of the SE Code of Conduct.
This is a VERY worrying principle.
If translated to law, it would mean that people could be taken to court and fined or even imprisoned, for using sentences without pronouns.
It means that there is no space for conscientious objectors who don't want to call someone by an unwanted pronoun, but also don't want to be coerced to use language that they believe is wrong.

People may not accept a pronoun because

• they have religious reservations
• they have reservations based on scientific evidence
• they have reservations based on observational evidence

Whether you or I agree with any of these reasons, it is unacceptable to cut off the possibility of conscientious objection for any of the above reasons.
I am a child of the European Enlightenment, and there is not a snowball's chance in Hell that I will EVER accept such limits on free speech.

Because SE put in these 2 sentences that contradict each other (the one suggests that you can just write normal sentences, the other suggests you will be punished for not explicitly using preferred pronouns), the defenders of the SE CoC are brushing off all ideas that people will be forced to use pronouns by pointing to the first sentence.

However, if this is the case, then why do they need to say "Explicitly avoiding using someone’s pronouns ...is a violation of the Code of Conduct" at all?

It is pretty obvious that this is bigger than StackExchange, and the aim is to shut off those conscientious objectors who currently formulate sentences without using pronouns. In real life, this includes anyone who deals with the public; teachers; medical staff; family and colleagues of trans people and others.

If this were translated to law, it would criminalise a lot of people.

There is a lot of disquiet on SE about this new Code of Conduct, which has been fuelled by the twitter outpourings of one of their employees, which basically said, anyone who doesn't accept the CoC is the problem and they won't care if these people leave.

So, the aim of the SE CoC appears to be to please trans activists, rather than mumsnet's aim of preventing flame wars. I know which I prefer.

Bear in mind, SE is an internet top 50 site, and the market leader in programming knowledge. They must have investors, who are apparently perfectly happy for them to upset the users who have contributed their expertise for free in order to make the sites what they are today. They also must be incredibly certain of their market-leading position to jeopardise it like this. They are behaving with complete contempt towards the majority of their users.

As a former ordinary user, I will never contribute my technical knowledge ever again on their site. Sure, I'll browse it, because it's useful, but I'll never put anything back into a site that disrespects and despises ordinary users to the extent that SE does. And I'd anyway never risk posting on a site that threw a moderator under the bus who has given them many hours of her time for free.

If you've reached the end of this essay, thank you for reading, and thank you mumsnet for providing a platform where I can post this, hopefully without it being deleted.

Thanks for drawing attention to this, programmer. I don't contribute to SO (nowhere near a good enough programmer) though I do use it.

I hate this move to coerced speech. I know I'm at risk of boring people with referencing this, but I keep thinking of th Vaclav Havel essay with the greengrocer putting the poster saying workers of the world unite in his window. As Havel points out what he's saying by doing this is not in fact "WOTWU" but rather "I'm toeing the party line, please leave me alone."

It's the chilling tendency of all authoritarians: keeping your head down isn't enough, they must force you to recite their creed on pain of being shown the instruments.

Of course, eppur si muove ("and yet it - the earth - still moves).

It's a creeping thing, isn't it? After a new norm is achieved there will always be a push for more.

Also notable that not allowing posters to avoid using pronouns has been one of the demands that TRAs have made of the MN mod team. This is a concerted effort and it needs to be dealt with head on.

I don't pretend to have a clue what most of this is about but I have carefully read and digested. I pride myself on my ability to formulate sentences avoiding the use of pronouns. I am shocked at the extent of efforts to force particular use of language / compel speech. Also the pronoun thing literally kills me as much because I can't cope with the grammar as for reasons of biological or other correctness. Occasionally I have struggled to read an article constantly referencing a particular person as they and I get confused - who is the other person they are talking about? Whereas I quite like my new style of pronoun free writing.

Thanks for posting this. Really important to know just how far the trans tenticles are reaching. And as we become more and more reliant ofcomputers taking decisions about our lives, the mind set / biases of the programmers is extremely important. (An old story is of a south London teaching hospital that became aware that fewer and fewer of their student doctors were women or from a BME community. Turns out the male programmer had programmed in assessments that gave lower points to women and those from BME communities.)

I'm assuming this is the Code referred to and at the end some of the comments, but looks like their moderators cant cope and are just deleting anything flagged rather than assessing.

meta.stackexchange.com/questions/334900/official-faq-on-gender-pronouns-and-code-of-conduct-changes?cb=1

Or is this another one?!

Also a programmer and regular visitor to SO. They sure take no prisoners with rules eg. topics and focus of questions. Surprises me if they are succumbing to the trans wishy washiness. Snowflakes don't survive over there whatever their 'issues' are.

I've found that NameSelf is one way of getting round the pronoun demands without too much mental strain.

Linguistic progrmming is such a good phrase to describe it. In Europe we should have the law on our side but it's only by our fingernails. The Christian teacher and the Ashers cake case will be back before the judges soon. This is an issue they won't let go. Compelled speech is crucial. It could bemade illegal to campaign against say a change in the GRA, because using the words you need, to describe what you want to defend, would be a criminal act.

Pronouns do not function as correction fluid for those who are dissatisfied with reality.

It is so frustrating when people abuse their power to try to force others to pretend to share their beliefs.
There is a long bloody history that teaches us that it never ends well.

If SO becomes intolerable we'll just move elsewhere - who's heard of expertsexchange these days? They went down after becoming too annoying/requiring a subscription, and if SO becomes unusable, the same will happen there.

I haven't contributed for years (and TBH I didn't take it as a good sign when someone was a heavy contributor - why weren't they doing their job instead of spending their time contributing content for someone else to make money of during their working hours - smacked of someone trying too hard to make a reputation to me), although I do read it, but like any un-curated resource, more and more often now the answers it comes up with are too old, or don't tell the full story.

Butter I mentally put the spaces in the wrong place then to be expert sex change
This is such worrying stuff, OP. Thanks for flagging.

ha ha butteryellow, so true. I built up a profile there in order to show off my expertise, but I was always very careful about advertising exactly WHEN I was posting there! Mostly on my days off.

CodeProject is looking like the best alternative at the moment, as it has a Q/A section. It remains to be seen whether they (or whichever becomes the next market leader) will withstand the demands for coerced speech.

@scotsheather, I think there is a genuine split between the take-no-prisoners programmers and the management.
The management's main aim appears to be the promotion of hardline politics - not only trans, but promoting minorities at the expense of programming excellence.
This is a logical flaw that is actually AGAINST the minorities, because it demands less high standards from them.
If someone from a minority posts on twitter that they feel unwelcome on SO, the company has a recent history of knee-jerk reactions blaming the SO community for making the minorities unwelcome. "Minorities" includes women, non-white races (though apparently not Indians or Chinese people) and LBGT.
As a woman, I feel mildly insulted at the idea that I need special kid glove treatment, encouragement or mentors in order to become a programmer or keep up with my colleagues. These ideas are patronising and insulting, and I think the whole coerced speech to support trans people, comes from the same tradition.

Recently, SO produced a new home page which declares something like "We

@Creepster, wish I could upvote that post, it's so true.

StackOverflow has always been a site that belittles beginner programmers and speaks to posters like shit, whilst puffing its own chest overwhelmed by its own ego. I am not surprised at their response or actions but I am surprised you thought better of StackOverflow OP!

StackOverflow has always been a site that belittles beginner programmers and speaks to posters like shit, whilst puffing its own chest overwhelmed by its own ego.

Funny you should say this. I just had to look up the syntax for something (pretty mundane and simple, but I use several languages and can often be caught out thinking "yeah, I know how to do this in C but what is the correct way of doing it in python?"

First hit on Google was of course SO and first comment was someone snippily saying RTFM. So not just woke wankers but rude woke wankers.

Can you remove the content you’ve contributed so far?

If so, would a group effort at deleting lots of user generated content in an agreed timeframe be a worthwhile protest?

As it seems to me the only way you can abide by those conflicting rules is not to post at all.

Mumsnet: more rational than stack overflow

It's a creeping thing, isn't it? After a new norm is achieved there will always be a push for more.

Yes. As with all supremacist, totalitarian movements.

@butteryellow I read your post as expert-sex-change rather than experts-exchange

Guess that’s the dangers of reading posts on the feminism boards ... bet they could sell the domain name to a whole new audience although guessing given previous entitlement maybe they would expect it for free.

And it puts a whole other layer of spin into the op’s original post!!

I find SO often similar to what BarbaraStrozzi describes, when I periodically get a link to it when I'm using a language I'm not too familiar with and have learned by the 'google and swear' method. Very patronising. If my search gets me a Code Maven link, I usually find that a lot more helpful. I'll keep my eye out for CodeProject.

What's crazy is that the volunteer moderator was quite happy to use these new pronouns like "zie" or "xe" for people identifying as non-binary, but didn't want to use singular "they" because she thought it made her writing sloppy and ambiguous. If anyone objects to that it's not about being "misgendered" but about wanting to be able to push a button and watch people jump. She still got sacked - before the new CoC had even been written.

This is really interesting, @programmer5278, and just underlines the truth that "the devil is in the detail." Enron was brought down by its accountants. Brexit is such a head-fucking rupture because it's not just about the Lisbon treaty but explodes the Good Friday Agreement (not to mention making countless contracts in goods and services, family budgets and so on, impossible to honour at the same cost/ level of difficulty). On the Today Programme earlier in the week, they had someone pointing out that there's no "agreeing" things with the EU; there's only negotiating, as that's how the EU functions.

I love a reference to Havel, @BarbaraStrozzi!

Also his suggestion to act " as though we are free."

Programmer here. I use this site a lot but mainly as Google searches lead me to it. I have an account but never really posted.

The whole site is a massive male-ego trip. All trying to out-do each other with answering questions as quickly as possible to prove how manly they are.....

I don't use my first name, just my initial because like GitHub there is a BIG sexism problem with sites like this (though not in real life usually).

This is a big thing though and thanks for raising it OP, because it's basically doing what Twitter does too: compelled speech and if you don't agree sod off. Well Twitter, I have sodded off, I refuse to capitulate.
I will be commenting about this but have noticed back in the 90s the only trans women I knew of were programmers too. It's common in this industry....

I’m not a programmer but I’ve found this really interesting, thanks OP.

Thank you for posting this programmer5278. That StackExchange fired a volunteer moderator is one thing, but that they briefed the press against her is quite another - it moves this into entirely reprehensible corporate bullying. Of someone who gave her time and expertise for free! It's vengeful and I'm trying to get my head around why they felt the need to do this.

As for the pronoun nonsense, I have a very low tolerance for this: I will not use made up pronouns, I will not mis-sex and have gotten very good at avoiding pronouns altogether on sites that control speech in this area. And if I am forced to use pronouns, I'm perfectly happy to use they + singular verb forms. Just to emphasise how ludicrous this is.

Introducing pronouns alone and asking users to respect them may have been explained away as someone seeking to be kind to a minority group commonly thought to be marginalised. But making it impossible for anyone to object and reject in a perfectly respectful manner (by avoiding pronouns) smacks of a much more sinister agenda.

As I grew up under a totalitarian regime, I say that StackExchange have officially crossed over into totalitarianism with the CoC rule that anyone avoiding pronouns will be penalised.

Where I grew up, it wasn't enough not to be a dissident. Only enthusiastic affirmation of the prevailing orthodoxy kept us out of trouble. Anyone holding back would find it very difficult to progress as this was put on your permanent record and could and would be used against you.

I am really hoping that your fellow programmers won't meekly accept having their speech compelled in this way. It's anathema to free speech and free thinking.