I don't think sexual attraction is binary

[nellodee]

Just brainstorming here, and these thoughts are certainly not set in stone...

I'm not attracted to men who identify as women (or haven't been yet, though admittedly, my exposure levels to this group are vastly different to that of male presenting males).

However, it's certainly the case that there are people who are exclusively attracted to both women and transmen. It's also the case that there are women who are exclusively attracted to both women and transwomen. There are probably also women who are attracted to anything BUT males. And every other combination possible, of course!

It strikes me as being fairly obvious that it's at least a quaternary, being attracted to:

same sex, same gender
same sex, other gender
other sex, same gender
other sex, other gender

I can understand that women who are attracted to women and transwomen want to call themselves lesbians, particularly if they subscribe to the view that twaw. And I can see they would feel that it was somewhat offensive to them to suggest that they are actually bisexual, given that usual meaning of this is to be attracted to male identifying males as well.

Unfortunately, the amount of combinations possible would mean we would need at least 50 new words even before we take NB into account. Given that there are four quadrants (at least, like I say NB would increase this even further), this gives 13 possible combinations of quadrant for each type of individual. Given TW are not going to want to sit in the M category, we have at least 4 different base individual categories. So, 4 x 13 words needed. Without including NB.

I'm quite curious as to how many people are single quadrant attracted vs being attracted to an entire axis. And is being "genitally" attracted any more common than being "gender" attracted?

Any thoughts?

There are 4 choices

Man
Woman
Both
Neither

/fin.

And.... nope

Jesus fucking H Christ.

There are males and females.
They can have sex with either males and/or females.

End of.

I don’t think gender is a sexuality. Sex is binary and sexual attraction is binary. Gender expression doesn’t alter biological sex. Anything beyond that is more accurately described as a paraphilia not a sexuality.

"it is easier all round to simply state what you are not interested in eg, a heterosexual woman might say 'men 35-50 only, no men under 5'6", no trans people'. In that very specific circumstance mention of preferences in the neagtive saves others wasting their time"

And this is where it all goes wrong.
I can have a list of preferences as long as my arm: no shorties, gingers, Corbyn fans, blue hair, men these are all ok by the moment I say no TW I am called a bigot - this is where this equating (lesbian, homo) sexuality with "same gender" attraction gets us. This issue does not affect straight women as the agp TW all want lesbians and TM are so very very rare and far less entitled to their TW equivalent.
The theories some have come up with cause direct harm to lesbians.

I don’t think gender is a sexuality.

I agree, it's just made up, non-scientific nonsense.

I think sex is binary but sexual attraction is more complicated. We are not attracted to all men or all women so there must be other things going on when we feel attracted to another person. These feelings aren't static for everyone - look at people like Susie Orbach who embarked on a relationship with Jeanette Winterson in her 60s, despite having been in a realtionship with a man for over 30 years.

I don't know the fairest way to refer to transwomen and their partners who describe themselves as lesbian but I do feel strongly that the cotton ceiling concept has really derailed things. Discrimination is about our place in civil society but not to fancy someone isn't necessarily discriminatory.

There are a lot of “still together” late transitioning male + female couples where the now trans woman considers herself a “lesbian” but the woman still considers herself straight.

Nothing has changed, except the self-perception of the trans person.

It’s all a bit word salady isn’t it? I wonder if lesbians online dating have the experience of turning up on a date to find “extra stuff” they haven’t bargained for

I'm quite curious as to how many people are single quadrant attracted vs being attracted to an entire axis.

I haven't met all the people yet so it's difficult to say!

People who attracted to same sex, whatever gender, are criminalised in multiple countries around the world, I think some still have death penalty.

Your idea waters down and muddies the words that are needed for specific reasons including fighting for legal rights.

So a hard no from me.

@AngelOf
"I wonder if lesbians online dating have the experience of turning up on a date to find “extra stuff” they haven’t bargained for hmm"

I really hope not, in my experience the sex of the "lesbians" is clear from their profiles.
It's homophobic and it is wrong.
But for some reason no one cares and people still try to gaslight us into "same gender" attraction.
No. No. No. And they can call me a bigot all you want, it's no different to what other homophobes have done to lesbians for years.

Sexual orientation and preferences are two different things. I’m gay, it doesn’t mean I just fancy men, I fancy a very specific combination of looks and personality. But that should be irrelevant when putting my sexuality in a box, otherwise I wouldn’t be called gay, it would be something stupid like femme, slim, white, kind guy attracted.

But people obsessing over sexuality isn’t helpful, it’s probably one of the reasons it takes gay people years to come to terms with being gay and why it typically means gay women don’t feel comfortable being in gay relationships until they are well into adulthood. Especially as gayness in women is still considered a phase by so many people rather than an actual sexuality.

Ideally no one would give a shit about anyones sexuality apart from their own, but as humans we’re too obsessed about other peoples lives and how other people percieve us.

I wonder if lesbians online dating have the experience of turning up on a date to find “extra stuff” they haven’t bargained for hmm

I have.

I like to think I'm quite good at working it out online as about 40-50% of the 'lesbian' profiles I see are TW. However, it's not always that easy to tell from a tinder profile and with all online dating, you see what you want to see, so sometimes I end up on tinder dates with TW.

The difference in recent years has been the shift toward lesbians being the ones with the issue and therefore people not feeling their,, erm, 'gender history' sufficiently important to mention. Like I'm the one with the problem if I say I want to date women and then am a bit perturbed when someone who was born and socialised male turns up with no warning.

It's a strange thing when you start thinking about it isn't it?

Like even if you see yourself as straight, you're not attracted to every guy. Most people have a type.

I think it's best just to be open minded. Love is love and you like who you like. I agree with the posters who have said there is no need to over think attraction.

Just enjoy life!

Like a pp, I think You are overthinking this. There are only 2 sexes. So you are either heterosexual, gay or bi. I am heterosexual only.

@LonginesPrime
"I have.
I like to think I'm quite good at working it out online as about 40-50% of the 'lesbian' profiles I see are TW."

God that is depressing, I had hoped it was just me with that kind of luck.
It can't be right that half the matches we are finding on lesbian dating are males and no one thinks this is a problem.
Someone told me to just ignore them, and I do, however it is very clear that lesbians are no longer using these apps, why would we when it is clear people are abusing them.
Yeah, but "same gender" attraction is a thing isn't it......
So so bored of homophobia from all sides right now.

I don't understand the reluctance to be bisexual. If you find yourself attracted to male and female bodies, irrespective of the plethora of made up gender labels, then you're bisexual. There's nothing wrong with that!

I agree that people conflate sexual orientation with preferences. People's personalities and sense of fashion and traits and attitudes all contribute to whether we find someone attractive or desirable.

Out of all the men and women in this world, there's a subset I will find sexually desirable and from that subset, there's an even smaller section that I would find suitable for a long-term relationship.

And for me, genitals absolutely matter. I'm attracted to the sexed bodies of males and females. On a physical level, there are separate and specific reasons why I find sex with men enjoyable versus why I find sex with women enjoyable. They are not interchangeable the way trans and queer ideology seems to insist we should all be.

I don't understand the aversion to being bisexual and wanting to come up with all sorts of convoluted labels to essentially mean the same thing. You don't stop being heterosexual or bisexual even if you only tend to find more feminine men attractive instead of more masculine ones.

The prevalence of males masquerading as 'lesbians' on dating sites is pretty awful though.

I don't understand the reluctance to be bisexual.

Nonny, do you mean that you don't understand the reluctance to be 'out' as bisexual?

My sexuality isn't something I chose and if I could magically be bisexual I probably would do that.

I'm attracted to the sexed bodies of males and females. On a physical level, there are separate and specific reasons why I find sex with men enjoyable versus why I find sex with women enjoyable. They are not interchangeable the way trans and queer ideology seems to insist we should all be.

Seconded.

Yes, LonginesPrime I worded that poorly but that's what I meant. It's trendy these days to have fancy labels to describe the 'genders' you are attracted to and I don't understand why bisexual is too uncool or taboo for these people. If you are sexually aroused and gain pleasure from male and female sexed bodies, then you are bisexual. It doesn't matter if you are attracted to more feminine men or more masculine women etc or enjoy a certain kind of sexual dynamics in the bedroom. We all have our personal 'tastes' for lack of a better word!

I can have a list of preferences as long as my arm: no shorties, gingers, Corbyn fans, blue hair, men these are all ok by the moment I say no TW I am called a bigot

Because in that second you break the illusion that someone who identifies as something truly is that thing. Your reality invalidates it.

The jumping language through complicated hoops, all the confusing the issue and twisting it in all kinds of directions is all, all , about trying to maintain that continuous illusion and to create a narrative where people have to validate it.

This is all very confusing; I don't understand the difference if there is one, between gender & sex anyway.

All I know is I'm straight & I fancy fit looking men with muscly bodies like I see at the gym.
Unfortunately I'm not very fit or toned so they probably don't fancy me.

Oh yes & I've learnt a new word.
Sapiosexual.
It means I fancy only intelligent men.
The problem is I do a min wage job & don't seem very intelligent.
So they probably don't fancy me either.

I'm going to be single forever!!!!

Honestly, what a load of nonsense. So if someone changes their look massively, from say hypa-femme to andro, you have t change your entire sexuality to accommodate fancying them? Don’t be bloody daft. What about someone who has a varied wardrobe?

I am a lesbian. I do not fancy all females, but all the people I ever fancy are female. it’s quite simple. My sister is heterosexual. She doesn’t fancy all men, but all the people she ever fancies are male. My gay male friend doesn’t fancy every man, but all the people he ever fancies are male. My bisexual friend doesn’t fancy everyone, but the people she fancies can be either male or female. It’s really not rocket science.

My preference is for MTF trans people or gender fluid male born people.

I dont really feel the need for a label. The only time labels bother me is when AGPs try to do the whole lesbian fantasy. It's not normal. My partner is MTF and would never refer to us as lesbians. I met him as a guy and we are attracted to each other as male and female too. If I were a lesbian that wouldn't have happened.