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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pink News deliberatly misrepresenting why Linda Bellos was speaking outside the Supreme Court in the US

24 replies

stumbledin · 11/10/2019 00:51

Lesbian activist Linda Bellos went to the Supreme Court to back Trump administration during landmark LGBT cases

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/09/lesbian-activist-linda-bellos-supreme-court-against-trans-rights/

Its not really a suprise, but it is sad that so many of the main stream news reports of this court case are just presenting it as being unreformed right wing reactionaries against wonderfully woke left leaning liberals standing up for the rights of minorities.

Because as usual the issue of the impact on women of the outcome of this court case is just thought to be unimportant.

thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/464325-harris-v-eeoc-and-the-womens-rights-legacy-of-ruth-bader-ginsburg

OP posts:
Ladyfat · 11/10/2019 01:14

To be fair they published a Lesbian Alphabet for "International lesbian day" - a day late... and letter T was of course Trans, complete with "Stand by your trans" pickets etc. 🤢 They are terrible.

Goosefoot · 11/10/2019 02:25

So, it's interesting to me that she accused the heckler in the audience as being a racist. It sounds like the heckler was accusing her of being a transphobe and homophobe, but if Bellos was white I suspect this person would have said the same thing.

A lot of what she said sounds like she really disagrees with the identity politics angle. So was she being ironic? If so, I wonder if it wasn't lost on the crowd? Or was there more going on than they reported that indicated their actions were racist?

AnyOldPrion · 11/10/2019 07:15

Does anyone understand why Cathy Brennan was standing with the TRAs shouting “homophobe“ at Linda? She seems to think that we have missed the lint in this legal case, but I can’t see that she’s explained that anywhere.

AnyOldPrion · 11/10/2019 07:15

Point, not lint

AnyOldPrion · 11/10/2019 07:20

twitter.com/fintechesq/status/1182413233300353025?s=21

Link to the Twitter thread. Looks like there may be a conflict of interest, but shouting homophobe at Linda remains ridiculous.

nettie434 · 11/10/2019 07:37

This thread seems to imply that it is about dress codes at work and the implication that dressing in 'women's' clothes would entitle the wearer to women's sex based rights at work:

twitter.com/sarahstuartxx/status/1182321778875650048?s=19

HandsOffMyRights · 11/10/2019 07:39

You can always rely on Ben Cohen's publication to manipulate a headline and story against women, especially lesbians.

LOL at the twitter comment about Linda having short hair.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 11/10/2019 08:30

Identity politics just makes everyone hate each other

Ambroise · 11/10/2019 09:37

What seems like a simple case of a man wanting to wear a dress at work in a Detroit Funeral Home has far reaching implications for women’s rights.

uncommongroundmedia.com/how-a-skirt-in-a-funeral-home-in-detroit-threatens-civil-rights/

Natasha Chart spoke outside the Supreme Court during the Detroit Funeral Home hearing. This is what she had to say:

uncommongroundmedia.com/full-text-of-natasha-charts-speech-outside-the-supreme-court/

TemporaryPermanent · 11/10/2019 11:47

Wow. That speech is eloquent.

Aimee Stephens sounds like a lovely person in the short interviews ive read. I'm grieving my dad right now and I'd be more than happy for them to be the funeral director, and I dont give a crap what clothes they would wear.

But words have meaning. 'Body' has a meaning - my dad is dead, nor alive. 'Sex' has a meaning. It is not a moral judgement on someone to say that they are male or female. All humans have a sex, it's one of the most inclusive aspects of being a human.

Goosefoot · 11/10/2019 12:23

I wonder though how we drft a line between saying clothes are so important to our sense of identity that we can't have something like a uniform or conventional expectation because it could violate the identity of the wearer, and the idea that they are unimportant so people can wear what they like. There seems to be sort of a weird paradox in there.

I think this is where this idea of innate gender essence is coming from. It's how people are explaining to themselves the idea that you could have a tomboy or butch woman, or an effeminate man, for whom something like clothing choices are so important that it would be a violation to expect them to adhere to some sort of convention.

I don't doubt that there is a tendency for humans to become rigid about conventions in many cases, but I am not sure that I am convinced that makes them simply bad. Funeral direction is such a highly customer service oriented business. It's not even like women never wear suits.

GrinitchSpinach · 11/10/2019 14:39

Natasha Chart is just wonderful. I can't understand how anyone could listen to this speech and her speech from the Standing for Women week in Washington last winter, and come away thinking she's some kind of bigot.

She is clearly, clearly coming from a place of deep concern for women and girls. Even if you think she's misguided about the legal issues (I don't, but that's beside the point) I think it's deeply disingenuous to pretend she is a right-wing bigot, and unbelievably gross to shout "Homophobe!" in her face while she tries to exercise her first amendment rights outside the US Supreme Court.

The "go home, homophobe!" shouts at Linda as she explained losing custody of her children for being an out lesbian added a xenophobic cherry on top of the lesbophobic and misogynistic cake of that anti-woman protest.

I also read on Twitter that the DC Gay Men's Chorus sang "We Shall Overcome" in an effort to drown out the women and girls speaking. Again with the appropriation of black Americans' history and civil rights struggle. Gross.

stumbledin · 11/10/2019 14:42

re Cathy Brennan

This is the same arguement that also happened here, ie should a feminist ever work with a right wing group?

The group who have attached themselves to the court case about LGBT+++ rights at work are WOLF who are trying to highlight the (un?)intended consequences that trans rights can end up erasing women's rights.

So Cathy Brennan is standing up for being publicly seen to be part of the work left alliance.

If you remember, and there were many threads on mumsnet about it, there was huge disagreements when some women from the UK went to the US to share a platform with WOLF. I posted the link to the article in the Hill as it is written by someone from WOLF.

What is clear is that both here and in the States nobody cares if women's rights are lost when the massed ranks of male left and right confront each other.

It is a shame that Cathy Brennan and others prioritise their left allegiances over supporting women. To dismiss the issue of women's rights purely because the case is bought by WOLF who have shared a platform with a rightwing christian group seems to imply that even for women who call themselves feminists women are always at the bottom of the pecking order.

(By the way it isn't clear to me that the case of the funeral director is about dress code. I thought part of the issue for the trans lobby is that he wanted to be recognised at work as a woman, not as a man who wanted to wear a dress. If this is the line of legal arguement the WOLF attached case if using I dont think they will get anywhere. In fact even if it was originally true it has now been appropriated by the trans lobby so they cant let it be about dress codes.)

OP posts:
Aberhonddu · 11/10/2019 14:56

This from Cathy Brennan

Pink News deliberatly misrepresenting why Linda Bellos was speaking outside the Supreme Court in the US
PencilsInSpace · 11/10/2019 15:33

I've just read the decision that is being appealed:

www.leagle.com/decision/infco20180307120

I think* WoLF have got it wrong.

The case, as far as I can tell, does not hinge on whether Stephens is considered to be male or female. The argument (aside from the bulk of the ruling that is to do with whether a religious exception should apply) is that Stephens has a Title VII case because the funeral home should not be imposing sex stereotypes:

discrimination against transgender persons necessarily implicates Title VII's proscriptions against sex stereotyping. As we recognized in Smith, a transgender person is someone who "fails to act and/or identify with his or her gender" — i.e., someone who is inherently "gender non-conforming." 378 F.3d at 575; see also id. at 568 (explaining that transgender status is characterized by the American Psychiatric Association as "a disjunction between an individual's sexual organs and sexual identity"). Thus, an employer cannot discriminate on the basis of transgender status without imposing its stereotypical notions of how sexual organs and gender identity ought to align. There is no way to disaggregate discrimination on the basis of transgender status from discrimination on the basis of gender non-conformity, and we see no reason to try.

and ...

Because an employer cannot discriminate against an employee for being transgender without considering that employee's biological sex, discrimination on the basis of transgender status necessarily entails discrimination on the basis of sex — no matter what sex the employee was born or wishes to be.

So Stephens might be arguing that Stephens should be allowed to follow the female dress code because Stephens is a woman but that is not an argument this decision relies on.

Both sides rejected a suggestion to just have a gender neutral dress code as a 'less restrictive means' of achieving equality because the funeral home would still be unhappy with other aspects of Stephens' presentation:

Neither party endorses the district court's proposed alternative, and for good reason. The district court's suggestion, although appealing in its tidiness, is tenable only if we excise from the case evidence of sex stereotyping in areas other than attire ... The record thus compels the finding that Rost's concerns extended beyond Stephens's attire and reached Stephens's appearance and behavior more generally.

My understanding is that sex specific dress codes are legal as long as they don't place an unequal burden on male and female employees, however I don't understand how this is compatible with the prohibition on sex stereotyping.

While the judgment does not consider the legality of sex specific dress codes, it does rule that the clothing allowance rules of the funeral home may be discriminatory - male employees get suits provided, until Stephens' complaint women had to buy their own clothes and now get a smaller allowance than the men (this is all academic because the funeral home say they have had no female employees since the 1950s) - and that this can be considered as a claim arising from the original complaint. Therefore the decision would appear to endorse Stephens' right to follow the female dress code as well as to be gender non-conforming in other ways.

So just following the arguments in this decision - even though the legality of sex specific dress codes is expressly not considered - if Stephens can wear the female dress code as part of not following sex stereotypes then surely so can any other male employee. And vice versa for female employees wanting to adopt the male dress code. If Stephens wins, sex specific dress codes can be legally challenged.

It's a confusing clusterfuck of a decision precisely because the legality of the dress codes are not being considered and neither is Stephens' claim to actually be a woman.

While I think WoLF have got this wrong I think the behaviour of Brennan and others at the demo was absolutely disgraceful.

*I am happy to be corrected on this because I am not even a pretend lawyer and am not all that familiar with US law.

PencilsInSpace · 11/10/2019 15:37

She is clearly, clearly coming from a place of deep concern for women and girls. Even if you think she's misguided about the legal issues (I don't, but that's beside the point) I think it's deeply disingenuous to pretend she is a right-wing bigot, and unbelievably gross to shout "Homophobe!" in her face while she tries to exercise her first amendment rights outside the US Supreme Court.

The "go home, homophobe!" shouts at Linda as she explained losing custody of her children for being an out lesbian added a xenophobic cherry on top of the lesbophobic and misogynistic cake of that anti-woman protest.

Agree 100%

FWRLurker · 11/10/2019 17:24

I just wish one of the justices had asked this question:

“Should the funeral home be allowed to fire a man who was NOT transgender but wished to dress and present as Aimee wished”

If the answer is NO, gender ID has nothing to do with it, then great.

If the answer is YES then I agree with WOLF.

Goosefoot · 11/10/2019 19:40

My understanding is that sex specific dress codes are legal as long as they don't place an unequal burden on male and female employees, however I don't understand how this is compatible with the prohibition on sex stereotyping.

This is a guess on my part, but I suspect that they don't consider sex based differences in clothing to be a stereotype. I wouldn't really put it that way, I would consider a stereotype a type of assumption about what individual men and women are like based on either group statistics or myths about the group. Clothing associated with men vs women I'd think of as a custom.

PencilsInSpace · 11/10/2019 19:49

I've been reading the oral arguments.

t.co/MCVsDIPNdr?amp=1

Neither side seems to properly differentiate between things like dress codes and things like single sex spaces.

One side appears to be arguing that both are sex stereotypes, the other side seems to be arguing that both are non-discriminatory actions that recognise that men and women are different.

So apparently women in the US can have both or neither. If you want female only toilets you must also put up with having to wear a skirt if that's what your employer decides. If you want the freedom to wear trousers you must put up with men in the women's toilets.

Also the language is so fucked it's extremely difficult to work out what either side mean. Both refer to 'transgender men/males' but I think one side mean females and the other side mean males when they use this term. Neither side is asked to clarify.

PencilsInSpace · 11/10/2019 20:03

Goosefoot, no party in this case has introduced the idea of 'custom' as distinct from sex stereotype. I don't think there is a difference.

The argument on the one hand seems to be that different dress codes may be sex stereotypes but are permissible as long as there is no detriment to either sex. On the other hand it is argued that different dress codes exist because men and women are different.

Much of the case focuses on interpretation of Price Waterhouse, where the complainant was not only discriminated against for not wearing skirts but also for not wearing make up or jewellery, or styling her hair. What's the difference? Why is a skirt 'custom' but those other things are sex stereotypes?

Aspley · 12/10/2019 12:18

Curious. Pink News still have not reported on the verdict of the court case that was brought against Bellos - that was thrown out. They gleefully reported on it beforehand.
Yet here they are again sticking the boot in when they get the chance.
When will the rest of the LGBT wake up to PinkNews's agenda.
It's not exactly subtle.

Themyscira · 12/10/2019 12:21

Identity politics just makes everyone hate each other

This, with bells on.

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