SINGLE SEX WARDS - TOMORROW 11.45, House of Lords

[Sicario]

Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne has issued an invitation to an open discussion on single sex wards.

5-7pm, 17 October, Committee Room 1, House of Lords.

Attendees are asked to arrive at least 30 minutes earlier, so best to be there by 4pm at the Cromwell Green entrance. I cannot get there as I will be at the WPUK Oxford meeting, but I will be writing to Baroness Nicholson.

Please do try to be there if you can, and spread the word.

NO DECISIONS ABOUT US WITHOUT US.

• [Title edited by MNHQ to reflect rescheduled time/date of meeting]

Sicario wpuk in Oxford is 25 October I think.

@TheCuriousMonkey - bloody hell. You're absolutely right!

Someone on another thread is asking for examples of "incidents" on mixed sex wards, so I'm copying it here too. Please DM this lady on Twitter if you can relate any incidents:

twitter.com/debbietayloros1/status/1182200477485809665?s=21

17th is a thursday. Interesting stuff thanks Sicario.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3220237-This-Never-Happens-Sexual-Abuse-in-mixed-sex-MH-wards-NHS-probe-launched

Has been interesting reading the tweets on Baroness Nicholson's Twitter. Lots of women explaining their experiences, that they would feel compelled to discharge themselves, the stress and distress this would cause to them, that they are furious about being expected to unconditionally prioritise the feelings of a male above their own privacy, safety and dignity when ill and vulnerable, and then to have nothing more than hope that that male is safe and will behave appropriately when just his presence causes them stress and embarrassment.

And the counter argument from a few which simply runs: TW are women so no issues, and TW are never a sexual risk, but women are a sexual offending risk too anyway. Bigot.

The total lack of care or interest in the wellbeing of women and the utter refusal to accept that some (we won't argue about how many) women will always, always perceive a TW as male and there are major human rights issues in trying to overcome this - its blatant. It isn't even self aware enough to realise how it looks. Feelings of male people: hugely important and to be heard and respected. Feelings - and privacy, dignity, safety- of female people, shut up with that ridiculous nonsense and do what's best for male people.

Stark.

Some views on mixed sex wards on this thread -

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3707561-To-ask-how-you-all-feel-about-mixed-sex-loos-and-wards?pg=2

This CQC inspection report on sexual safety on mental health inpatient wards is worth a read: www.cqc.org.uk/publications/major-report/sexual-safety-mental-health-wards

In response to the Baroness's tweet asking for women's experience and opinions on being able to have single sex provision, there are so many women who say they would rather discharge themselves than be treated with men. There is also a disclosure of rape on a mixed sex ward and the subsequent trauma.

All the people dismissing these viewpoints and testimonies may be able to convince themselves that they are super progressive to do so. What they can never do is say they were not told the unvarnished truth. I hope it bites down hard when that fact is underlined as time moves on.

The concept of 'inclusion' is the bullet that has to be bitten.

Inclusion of everyone in society with respect and appropriate facilities to meet their particular needs - yes. Third spaces do that.

Inclusion of a person into a sex group they are not - no, not unconditionally in all circumstances, because that sex group by definition have needs that stop being met the moment someone not of that sex is present.

'Inclusion' doesn't mean imposition. Or colonisation. Or oppression. By nature, forcing men into women's wards (and other single sex spaces) excludes a significant number of women. That isn't inclusive in any way.

Just had a thought. If you're there very early, or can't get in (excellent that it's an open meeting, but I'm sure there'll be a big turnout) how about lobbying your MP? It's something I've always wanted to do and that a number of FWRers managed in conjunction with the David Davies meeting.

IIRC, it's still done the traditional way - you fill in a small green card and, if your MP is available, they'll come to the lobby for a chat.

Doesn't have to be just about wards - though, of course, that's fine - sports, new relationship ed, whatever you're most concerned about. Tons of excellent material to print out. My suggestion - particularly for women MPs - is our lovely Cllr Sarah's Leeds speech (if I won the lottery, I'd have it printed up and sent to every UK woman politician).

A banner or two would also be good

All this talk of 'inclusion' that excludes women. I think I'm just going to start responding when people talk about 'inclusion' by saying 'do you mean exclusion of women and girls?' because really, that's what it is. Third spaces = inclusion. Men in women's spaces =exclusion of women and girls.

Dr Haddock has made clear his contempt for women's desire to have single-sex wards:

twitter.com/WhatTheTrans/status/1182062173142634500

All the people dismissing these viewpoints and testimonies may be able to convince themselves that they are super progressive to do so. What they can never do is say they were not told the unvarnished truth. I hope it bites down hard when that fact is underlined as time moves on.

Yes. Those arguing for TW in women's single sex spaces are clearly saying the real feelings of exclusion and fear of real women don't matter. They need to own that, and it is being evidenced and that is important.

You might want to ask for your title to be edited, OP. It’s Thursday 17th, not Friday.

Wouldn’t want anyone to miss it cos they got the days mixed up!

I hope there will be a big turnout of women for this, it's so important (she says, at the other end of the country).

Someone has had a response from Baroness Nicholson on Twitter. It is clear that the noble Baroness didn't realise that most of the biological males who "gender identify AS women" have no hormonal/surgical attention to what used to be described as "manhood".

a) the NHS already agrees to single-sex wards but if you look at the NHS Improvement document improvement.nhs.uk/documents/6005/Delivering_same_sex_accommodation_sep2019.pdf
you will find that this use of the term "same-sex" already contains the assumption that a female in a male ward is the same as a male in a female ward thus 1 woman on a ward of 6 men is regarded as 1 breach for EACH man NOT 6 breaches to the female patient.

This topic is therefore Female-ONLY wards because despite 99.1% of sexual offenders being MALE they are treating the breach of dignity and privacy as being the SAME.

This document includes plenty about the needs of trans patients to CHOOSE where they are comfortable but nothing about 1 in 5 women who have already experienced sexual violence and how they might feel.

This document contains 2 x email addresses of NHS improvement...

"How do you Feel about TW (biological males) being introduced into Female-ONLY wards".

Female and Male are descriptors of Biological Sex.
You can't "gender identify AS" female or male you either are female or male which if you Google "Lovers of Modena" is a fact that remains true for 1500 years after burial with biological sex detectable from a scrap of dental enamel.

A group of us ARE going on Thurs 17th so IF you write a brief account of "How YOU feel about TWs or any other form of trans who is in fact biological male" that can be taken and given to Baroness Nicholson.
Also if you are on Twitter a number of people are letting her know and if you agree with certain comments or have similar stories of how biological males behave differently wrt biological females, it is worth getting them to
twitter.com/debbietayloros1/status/1182200477485809665?s=21
or message me here.
Screenies of inappropriate behaviours in female spaces?

A group of us ARE going on Thurs 17th so IF you write a brief account of "How YOU feel about TWs or any other form of trans who is in fact biological male" that can be taken and given to Baroness Nicholson.
Also if you are on Twitter a number of people are letting her know and if you agree with certain comments or have similar stories of how biological males behave differently wrt biological females, it is worth getting them to twitter.com/debbietayloros1/status/1182200477485809665?s=21 or message me here.
Screenies of inappropriate behaviours in female spaces?

Best of luck at the meeting, LesbianGranny. I'm not sure how many women will feel safe to PM you on here, though. I'm sure you'll understand - this board gets a LOT of attention from TRAs, some of whom post on here to try to goad us / get information, so we've learned to be careful. And we know they're aware of this meeting.

Have sent 3 FOI requests to my local hospitals asking for info. If replies are received in time will forward the info to Debbie

Even those at the other end of the country can write how they feel on this subject and send it to those of us who ARE going. The invitation is framed as a question, even if you cant be there in person, you can still answer. There is a HoL email that is forwarded to her, there are also two NHS email addresses.

May I suggest a re-name of this thread to
"Female ONLY Wards Under Threat"

Emails in NHS Improvement document who you might wish to discuss your concerns:
[email protected]
[email protected]

The current legislation is for single sex accommodation and breaches are for mixed sex accommodation. Gender doesn’t feature in the guidance on which trusts are judged.

It’s not difficult for trusts to protect women but avoid creating problems for trans women by the appropriate use of single room accommodation.

Most trans women are not going to be frail elderly and are not going to end up on general medical wards.
Most trans women - as young healthy people - are going to be admitted for either elective surgery - so their accommodation can be planned. Day surgery can be mixed as no overnight stays. Longer stays can be single rooms.
In an emergency, the accommodation on most areas that would be used, such as accident and emergency or critical care is mixed anyway.
It’s a bit of a theoretical non issue.
Lavatories in hospitals have locked doors. Bathrooms in hospitals have locked doors. Most trusts now I operate a Baywatch system with an ever present nurse.
It’s in mental health units that there may be an issue.

Wards are mixed in Australia.

My sister has been sexually assaulted while admitted. By a fellow patient in the same ward.

When my body failed and I was admitted for a few days it was to a mixed ward. I couldn't move independently the entire time I was there, and it was terrifying. 20 minute wait times when pushing the bell was normal.

I was then moved to a rehab hospital and the ONLY reason I was not in a shared room with a man is that I had an allergic reaction to something the man in the next bed was eating on day 1. They rearranged things so I ended up with a single room for the 4 week stay. There was zero provision for anyone to ask for single sex rooms. Awful.

Except in mental health units, mixed sex wards are normal in U.K. and have been for decades. There are single sex bays within mixed six wards. Some places have single sex general wards but most speciality wards - cardiology, oncology, acute stroke, renal are mixed sex and always have been.

Even Mental Health units are not particularly effectively single sex. This has been an issue for a long time.

"Some places have single sex general wards but most speciality wards - cardiology, oncology, acute stroke, renal are mixed sex and always have been."

Single sex sleeping accommodation has been the norm since 2011.

In March 2012 the NHS Constitution introduced a pledge that if admitted to hospital, patients will not have to share sleeping accommodation with members of the opposite sex, except where appropriate.

I'm not sure what 'appropriate' means, but assume it means where specialist intensive care can only be given on a ward that includes men and women. I don't think that includes all oncology care.